D&D 5E (2014) Morale and Loyalty in the DMG

[Hriston]

I think I will use it as my morale roll, or at least to modify morale rolls.

That's along the lines of what I've been thinking. I'm looking for a way to tie the two together in the case of hirelings and henchmen of course, but I'd also like to use it for monsters that have a leader, like these hobgoblins. Only using the wisdom bonus seems a bit low for these guys although I guess a DC 10 isn't very hard.

 

[thalmin]

That's along the lines of what I've been thinking. I'm looking for a way to tie the two together in the case of hirelings and henchmen of course, but I'd also like to use it for monsters that have a leader, like these hobgoblins. Only using the wisdom bonus seems a bit low for these guys although I guess a DC 10 isn't very hard.

I think I'll use the Wisdom modifier to determine if a creature chooses correctly whether it's time to bug out or surrender or stay and fight.

 

[Hriston]

I think I'll use the Wisdom modifier to determine if a creature chooses correctly whether it's time to bug out or surrender or stay and fight.

I've heard several people saying similar things about the wisdom save as morale check. It seems like there's a precedent for this in some other d20 system, at least in someone's house-rules. And at first I thought the same thing. Why would someone with a higher wisdom stay I the fight longer? Constitution seemed like a better alternative even though it's supposed to be a purely physical attribute and morale a largely mental effect. I've heard of some people using constitution. But I've come around to the view that wisdom is not only those mental faculties that broaden someone's perception, intuition, etc., but also governs the narrowing of one's focus to allow someone to control the impulse to flee when their intelligence is telling them the odds are stacked against them. That's why unintelligent creatures don't check morale. So I have no problem with seeing a high wisdom save as a high level of morale. What I would like to see is some modifiers to reflect the training that hobgoblins and other monsters might have that would give them a higher morale than their wisdom indicates. That's why I'm considering adding the proficiency bonus or just a straight 10% modifier for the more martial races.

 

[rjfTrebor]

Oh yes! Have you?

of course. i played Next/5e every week for the last two years. i even have a credit for playtesting in the DMG.

 

[Hriston]

of course. i played Next/5e every week for the last two years. i even have a credit for playtesting in the DMG.

Well then I bet they comp'ed you a copy. Got anything to add that's pertinent to the thread?

 

[Saeviomagy]

Wisdom seems like a bad choice: consider
1. Now is actually a really bad time to bug out. Wisdom will both let you see that, and also allow you to over come your base fear and not bug out. Fine so far
2. Now is actually an idea time to bug out. Wisdom will let you see that, but will also allow you to overcome your base fear and not bug out... Hmmm...

Also the charisma of your leader should play into it, as should your intellect etc etc.

I also personally feel that wisdom is too much of a catch-all stat already. Tracking, perception, strength of will, judgement all fall there, and now so does bravery?

Finally in terms of who is likely to have it:
Clerics and druids are much more likely to be brave than fighters and barbarians. Paladins are chickens before 6th level and become indomitable at 10th.(no real reason to have high wis, poor wis saves. Get cha to wisdom saves at 6th, become immune to fear at 10).

 

[Hriston]

Wisdom seems like a bad choice: consider
1. Now is actually a really bad time to bug out. Wisdom will both let you see that, and also allow you to over come your base fear and not bug out. Fine so far
2. Now is actually an idea time to bug out. Wisdom will let you see that, but will also allow you to overcome your base fear and not bug out... Hmmm...

Also the charisma of your leader should play into it, as should your intellect etc etc.

I also personally feel that wisdom is too much of a catch-all stat already. Tracking, perception, strength of will, judgement all fall there, and now so does bravery?

Finally in terms of who is likely to have it:
Clerics and druids are much more likely to be brave than fighters and barbarians. Paladins are chickens before 6th level and become indomitable at 10th.(no real reason to have high wis, poor wis saves. Get cha to wisdom saves at 6th, become immune to fear at 10).

I would say that what lets you see whether flying is a good idea or not is Intelligence rather than Wisdom. Sure there are some basic observations of the battle in progress but then your Intelligence gets to work on the problem, calculating the odds of winning, or of even coming out of it alive. The thing is that you don't have to be very intelligent to do this. An "animal intelligence" will do the trick. Non-intelligent creatures won't get past this point, however, and will never check morale.

So what happens when your Intelligence tells you that the odds are stacked against you. (Not a difficult calculation, so no Cowardice Check required to come to this conclusion.) That's when Morale comes in to question, and I would say that it's not really a question of whether it's a good time to run or not. The conditions for a Morale check assume that it is a good time and we just want to see if the monster or NPC stays in the fight anyway because of bravery or training or just sheer force of will.

Now if its a good idea to fall back to gain some kind of tactical advantage the DM should role play the monster appropriately. That really doesn't fall under Morale either.


I absolutely agree with you about the Charisma of leaders which is why I started this thread about linking Morale with Loyalty. I'd like to see some method of this, whether it's using the Loyalty score in place of a die roll for Morale checks or at least as the source of a modifier, as was suggested above. Or perhaps simply adding the Charisma bonus of a leader to a Morale check in addition to or in place of the Wisdom modifier. The rule that allows for the leader to save for the entire group seems to address this, but we'll see how it works in actual play I guess.

Now as for Clerics and Druids having proficiency on Wisdom saves in addition to having generally high Wisdoms to begin with, I too have had misgivings about this. Fighters are supposed to be the most battle-hardened class aren't they? But when you consider the religious nature of these classes, you can see their high Morale as a kind of fanaticism similar to the devotion of saints and martyrs. I'm not familiar enough with the 5e Paladin's progression to comment on that so I'll have to review my PHB.

 

[rjfTrebor]

Well then I bet they comp'ed you a copy. Got anything to add that's pertinent to the thread?

nope, i still had to buy it like everyone else.

as for the Morale discussion, i'd personally roll it at the start of each fight for every creature involved so that it could better inform how they'd fight as wild animals or sentient creatures. obviously most wild animals would flee at around half their hitpoints while human soldiers could easily be convinced to persevere if victory was on the horizon.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

The morale rules are not my cup of tea. I much more liked the BECMI where you had a number from 1-12 and if you rolled over it on 2d6 you fled. I think I'm just going to bolt that system onto 5e, easy enough.

 

[Hriston]

The morale rules are not my cup of tea. I much more liked the BECMI where you had a number from 1-12 and if you rolled over it on 2d6 you fled. I think I'm just going to bolt that system onto 5e, easy enough.

Any idea how Moldvay/Cook/Marsh et. al. came up with these numbers? (Assuming they're the same as they are in B/X) I'm interested in putting together a system that is compatible with the early editions, particularly because the module I'm working with was revised for B/X and has morale scores for every monster. They're the standard morale scores from the rulebook, I believe. They give a regular hobgoblin an 8, which amounts to a 72% success rate, and the leader and his bodyguard have a morale of 10 (92%). Now I'm interested in converting all of this to a d20 so I can add an ability score bonus (liege's Charisma for retainers) without converting it to a smaller number to fit on the 2d6. And I'd like to understand what accounts for the leader's higher morale mechanically. I've reviewed all past editions with this in mind and I like AD&D's granularity with respect to modifiers for training and status, etc., but I haven't found any information on deconstructing the B/X morale scores. The numbers just seem a bit too opaque for me to work with.