More Improved Grab

[BlackBart]

I was hoping the Gamestoppers column would help me understand this more, but alas I'm more confused.

Improved Grab(Ex): If the creature hits with a melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity (see Grapple, page 137 of Player's Handbook). No initial touch attack is required, and Tiny and Small creatures do not suffer a special size penalty. Unless otherwise stated, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it suffers a -20 penalty to grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents.

Ok, this seems to make enough sense, conduct your grapple with a -20 penalty or suffer the normal consequences of being grappled.

When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The creature is not considered grappled while it holds the opponent, so it still threatens adjacent squares and retains its Dexterity bonus. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent's weight.

But once you get the hold, you are no longer considered grappled, so why bother with the -20 penalty, except to get your additional attacks? When does this happen? The normal rules for grappling have:

Grab: You make a melee touch attack to grab the target. If you fail to hit the target, you fail to start the grapple.

Improved grab skips this step, moving right on to:

Hold: Make an opposed grapple check. If you succeed, you have started the grapple, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike.
If you lose, you fail to start the grapple.

This appears to be where the Improved Grab starts, at the Hold, however without the additional damage, excepting constrict.

Move In: To maintain the grapple, you must move into the target's space. Moving, as normal, provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening enemies, but not from your target.

With Improved Grab, I pull you into my square, so this still holds true, somewhat. After that you are grappling.

The long winded question, at what point would a creature with Improved Grab ever be considered grappling?

 

[kreynolds]

From my understanding, Improved Grab allows you to initiate a grapple as a free action with the limb you used to make an attack with. If you want, you may use only that limb, keeping your other limbs free to attack. If you do this, you suffer the -20 because you are only using one limb to grapple. If you still succeed at the -20, you can use the rest of your limbs to pummel your victim. Or, if you make an attack and hit your target you get to start a grapple faster than others can. That's the ups and downs of it, as far as I understand it.

The idea behind it is that a Glabrezu can pop you with a pincer attack. If it hits, it can start a grapple as a free action that does not draw an attack of opportunity. If the Glabrezu wants, it can use just it's one claw to conduct the grapple. If it succeeds, it deals automatic pincer damage every round you lose the grapple. Also, every round, the Glabrezu can pummel you with the rest of it's attacks.

Understand?

 

[Xahn'Tyr]

If the victim wants to escape the grapple, doesn't the holding beast take that -20 to their opposed roll as well? Gads, I wonder if I've been doing it wrong all this time...

 

[kreynolds]

The holding beast only takes a -20 if it is only using the one limb. Otherwise, normal grapple rules apply. Basically, 1 limb = -20, normal grapple = normal rules. They just make it sound hard in the books.