D&D (2024) My current assessment…

Mephista

Adventurer
They're not only "on-par", they're ahead, and they get further ahead as levels go up and challenges get wilder.
I mean to say Expertise there, my mistake. Its odd that casters are on par with Rogue's Expertise.

The redesign to the function of BI is significant too - not only is it Reaction-based, but it's "after you fail", whereas before, you had to decide whether to roll in the extremely annoying window of "before the DM says whether you succeeded or failed", which depending on the DM and situation could be like 0.3 seconds (literally!).
That's still a quality of life change, not a power bump. It makes BI easier to use, not a direct increase of power. QoL changes are not the same as power bumps. And its not like the loss of pre-buffing Inspiration doesn't have its own nerfs that we need to keep in mind.

The prepared spells thing is pretty significant too, in terms of increasing the flexibility of Bards, particularly outside combat.

However there is some weird stuff, like pushing Jack of All Trade from 2 to 5 (why?) and pushing Font of Inspiration to 7 (again, why?).

Losing Song of Rest is I think likely to be fairly minor in real terms, especially as the scaling was embarrassingly bad.
Eh... I feel that people are honestly overrating prepared spells on a bard - far too often, you don't know exactly what to prep at the beginning of an adventure day for exploring that wouldn't be in a standard load out.

Its pretty obvious that Jack got pushed to 5 because Expertise is now a lower level, to match Rogue/Ranger; future proofing for any Expert-only items or feats. The features swapped. And Font of Inspiration got pushed to 7 because of the pacing of class features.

Song of Rest was pretty good at low levels, ya know, the levels most people play at. And that's not the only nerf that bard healing got. Bards have lost pretty much any out of combat healing ability.
 

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Mephista

Adventurer
The list of Bard spells for healing in Songs of Restoration are significant and they go into the territory of the cleric. It's fine for the Bard to be able to be the healer in a pinch, but things like Mass Healing Word and Greater Restoration may be going to far IMHO Your mileage may vary.
5e bards had MORE and stronger healing spells in 5e than Song of Restoration. Hells, they're not even all healing magic. Too far? You must have really hated healing on the old bard too, then.
 

shadowoflameth

Adventurer
5e bards had MORE and stronger healing spells in 5e than Song of Restoration. Hells, they're not even all healing magic. Too far? You must have really hated healing on the old bard too, then.
I don't mind healing on the Bard, but if you play in a party with a Cleric, it can be redundant and can intrude on the Cleric's space competing for some of the same moments in the spotlight. The Bard sometimes does this with the Rogue too. The Bard isn't built IMHO to be centered around being the healer but the Cleric is and personal taste, I think that the Cleric is better in that party role.
 

Don’t get me wrong—I’m not unhappy to see SS and GWM toned down. They will have to boost most martial classes with internal features in the face of that loss, though, and they didn’t pay attention to such details (albeit regarding a different set of specific topics) insofar as the rogue is concerned. Quite the opposite.

Yeah, with SS and GWM (and polearm master to a degree) deprived of their broken features, WotC now has the chance to buff martials, bringing up their baseline performance, without worrying of the broken builds becoming too broken.
Fundamentally, I think they are pulling in the outliers. Be that for reason of simplicity, to make more than one built option viable (updated 2wf rules and working with bonus-action effects being a good example), or to just make the game a group of 10-year-olds picking up the game themselves* play more resemble what a group of dedicated hardcore rules-hounds play ('the rogue is effective because we've done the analysis and focused on how to get them an Opportunity attack every round' is good for a class that needs help, but honestly not how I'd balance a game option).
*and this, honestly, is the group around which I think game rules need to be designed. Dedicated, adult, optimization-focused gamers are perfectly capable of shaping a game system to suit their needs. It is kids and people who just want to sit down and play that really need rules to support them (and not have options they don't know they shouldn't take).

I'm hoping we get warriors next, as I want to see whether the trend of bringing up the low end and bringing down the high end (/tricks kids or beer&pretzel players may not use). Here's hoping that non-polearm two-handed weapons and weapon&shield get some kind of boosts, and yes that fighters get something to compensate for no longer having some of their dirty tricks combos anymore (and c'mon another out-of-combat ability or two).

I agree that what we’ve seen with the rogue is worrying. Their most optimized tactics were nerfed, and too little was given in return.
This is my main concern. Rogues got very little in return for turning off a strategy that kept them competitive (regardless as to whether I think it was actually beneficial to the game at large).

Regarding spellcasting, I think we will just have to see. I don't see the change in memorization as overly huge a shift in their favor. It's fine, but nothing drastic. The specifics of hiding and invisibility are... probably not as significant as they seem, but still kinda irksome (here I think is where feedback will have the most effect: changes to basic rules like crits and movement and hiding and spotting and generalized resolution -- my gut is telling me that's where they really don't know exactly what the audience wants and thus telling them is most important).

Much of it will have to wait until we see spell descriptions. If they modify the wishes, simulacra, become-a-MM-entry, gain-a-MM-entry-as-servant, unstoppable-except-specific-magic force structures, and a few other spells (and if they somehow don't realize these are big problems, this is another place to speak up and speak loudly), I'll be happy with a good 40% of this. The 'control the 5-minute workday' advice is another big chunk.
 

Cyber-Dave

Explorer
I have to say, at first, I was a little disheartened to see the people trying to maintain the status quo and silence play TEST observations. It was also surprising to see how many people don’t understand the finer details of their own hobby… I’m specifically thinking of the people who don’t realize that invisibility and hidden have changed significantly, both in terms of rules, presentation, and relationship. It’s nice to see a higher caliber of interaction and analysis in many of the more recent posts! Just wanted to say thanks to those who engaged in it.
 

Mephista

Adventurer
I don't mind healing on the Bard, but if you play in a party with a Cleric, it can be redundant and can intrude on the Cleric's space competing for some of the same moments in the spotlight. The Bard sometimes does this with the Rogue too. The Bard isn't built IMHO to be centered around being the healer but the Cleric is and personal taste, I think that the Cleric is better in that party role.
All experts have a kind of soft... second sub-role. Bards are sub-healers. Rangers are sub-Warriors. Rogues are sub-ummm... something?

And its likely not the last we're going to see of it. Paladins are main priest (healer), sub-warrior. Druids are main priest, sub-Expert (aka exploration). Clerics are main priest, sub-mage (lightbased blaster clerics are a thing for a reason). Monks in Tasha got healing and they're called pseudo-divine class for a reason. Barbarians are traditionally wilderness survivors (expert). How many Eldritch Knight variations have we gotten for Fighter? I know of four off the top of my head. Mages... honestly, wizards like stepping on everyone's toes except priests, but their utility puts them usually good at exploration, warlock at Warrior-like.

Anyways, the point is that we're going to have a lot of stepping on each other's roles going forwards across the divide.
 



shadowoflameth

Adventurer
I'd say the rogue is the pure expert, and (supposedly) the best at the whole skill department.
and I would say that Cleric is the pure Healer and maybe secondary something else depending on the build. I get Bard, Druid and others having some healing, but personally, I think of the Cleric as the default of 'We need a healer.' Other characters can do it, but Cleric is made to do it as their central role. Of course, We haven't seen Cleric, Druid or most classes in the play testing yet. Maybe more will change on who's good at what.
 


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