My @!@#! Player abusing Feather Fall

[two]

hm...

Mind you, if I were a 20th level wizard I certainly think that quickened minor globe of invulnerability would be in my repetoire, or possibly even contingency: globe of invulnerability to go off at the start of a melee (trigger as agreed with DM). Silence spells are big threats to casters at that level and globe of invuln. is the best way to shut that threat down and eliminate it completely. You don't have to know that Silence is coming up *right now*, but this decent defensive spell is one of the few ways you can get absolute protection against silence along with a number of other nasty spells.

- just mentioning this in case other readers of the thread hadn't considered this counter

Cheers

I don't think this works for a number of reasons, some rules-based, some tactical.

1) If you ready a silence, and the Wizard20 pops off a quickened Globe of Invulnerbility (lesser), it fails. The silence spell is cast (triggered and resolved) before the quickened spell. It's the central feature of the readied action. So what you end up with is a Wizard20 trying to cast a quickened globe of invul. (lesser) in a silenced area -- illegal. It does require a vocal component; quickening does not remove this requirement, unless I've missed a rule. Ergo -- the quickened globe fails. The Wizard CAN then move out of the Silence radius and cast, if he's got room to do so -- there is a benefit to the strategy. But he's blown an 8th level slot, and the other guy just used a 2nd level spell. [I know it's illogical that a standard spell is "cast" before the quickened spell, but it's in the rules. You can justify it by saying the Silence spell was 99% cast, just a last word comlpeted it after the trigger -- or something. ] Now a quickened, silenced lesser globe of invulnerbility -- that would work. Lousy 9th level spell, however.

2) It's cheap to heighten a silence spell to overcome a globe of minor or not-so-minor invulnerbility. A heightened (to 5th) silence ain't fun. A heightened silence (to 4th) punches right through the globe of invis. (lesser). In this case you are trading a 4th level spell for the quickened glob of I(L); 4th level vs. 8th level. Any day of the week.

If you are going against a Wizard20, I'll assume you can figure out a way to heighten silence to 4th or 5th.

3) A contingency globe of invulnerbility (lesser or not-so-lesser) is one heck of a use of spell slots in order to get around a 2nd level spell. Tactically, if you force an enemy to do this, it's a good trade off. Just hit him with a heightened silence (5th level) and you still end up way ahead (contigency = 6th level, after all).

But this probably has a WHOLE lot more to do with the fact that silence is too powerful.

Even if you don't heighten silence, you give enemies fits and require them to burn spells as a countermeasure in advance (or memorize odd and not-great spells, like a quickened Globe of I).

Readied "silence" spell. The wizard-killer's best friend (right after a heavy pick critical, that is).

 

[Sithobi1]

Deleted because of faulty reading.

 

[atom crash]

First off, I've only read the first and last page of this thread, so sorry if this rehashes what's already been said.

Now, it sounds like the player had an innovative way to fake out the bad guys. Kudos for him. But perhaps this tactic is so effective because now he knows exactly what to expect from you, the DM, in encounters. Take the initiate back, so to speak, and fake him out by changing up your routine. It was suggested by several people to try grappling, tanglefoot bags, etc. and not rely so heavily on readied actions.

I think that's all sound advice. I love tanglefoot bags and nets myself. And you can't go wrong with a big nasty fighter, a spiked chain and that feat that doesn't let mages cast on the defensive just so he has to risk an AoO.

But don't abandon the readied action, either. Come up with 3 or 4, maybe 5 standard tactics and keep switching it up so he never really knows what to expect.

This way, it solves your issue but it still allows his cool trick/tactic to work some of the time, so he gets to keep having his fun.

In other words, reward him for his cleverness, but don't let the reward get too big.

 

[KarinsDad]

I don't think this works for a number of reasons, some rules-based, some tactical.

It actually does work fairly well, it just can be countered sometimes with forethought.

However, most enemies will not have that forethought.

For Silence, you need a Bard or a Cleric. Not every encounter with NPC spell casters includes a Bard or a Cleric.

For Heightened Silence, you need a specific type of Bard or Cleric (one with the Heightened feat).

You also need (to minimally guarantee at least temporary success) that specific type of Cleric to have actually prayed for a Heightened Silence today AND she must heighten it to 5th level, presumable to counter a Globe of Invulnerability. The specific type of Bard does not have to concentrate on it, but 5th level spells are fairly high ones for a Bard, so it is pricey and easy to counter (see below).


Even in the case of just having a Cleric or Bard ready a Silence spell, the Cleric or Bard must also win initiative (or surprise the arcane spell caster). In the case of a Cleric, this will typically happen less often than a Wizard or Sorcerer winning initiative due to the fact that Dexterity tends to not be heavily pumped by Clerics (due to armor), but often somewhat pumped by arcane spell casters (if not just via items). And, Cat's Grace is not a Cleric spell, but is a Sorcerer/Wizard spell. And, arcane spell casters (at least ime) tend to take Improved Initiative more often than Clerics (especially Wizards since they have more feats). For Bards versus other arcane spell casters, it's often a toss up for initiative.


Granted, almost any spell caster can ready Dispel Magic or Greater Dispel Magic, but even that is not guaranteed.


Also, Silence has a 20 foot radius whereas Globe of Invulnerability has a 10 foot radius. If you cast the heightened version after the Globe is already up, it is typically easy for the arcane spell caster to walk out of the Globe, dispel the Silence (assuming he did not fail his saving throw against the Heightened Silence), and then walk back into the Globe (course, a Bard could just put the Heightened Silence back up again, but he'd be chewing up his 5th level spells). Or, the Wizard's fellow party member spell casters could often help him dispel the Silence as well.


And finally, even if a Bard or Cleric (with the non-heightened version of Silence) wins initiative, it is not always in her best interest to target a specific character with an anti-spell casting ready action. I know my wizards often walk around looking like monks, just so that new opponents want to avoid throwing spells at me. You get your party monk to try to look like a Wizard at the same time and it really freaks out the opposition for a round or two.


All in all, Plane Sailing's tactic is sound. There are ways around it, but I suspect that his DM would not use them in most encounters, only some encounters (and even then, they had better be quick about it or they had better have the heightened version of Silence or several targeted Dispel Magic type spells available).

 

[Shadowdweller]

To be honest, questions and defenses specifically against silence are largely irrelevant because there are any number of nasty higher-level attack spells which work equally well (for purposes of interruption) if readied. A fireball or other high-damage spell, for instance, will typically make for an impossible concentration check...as well as having the benefit of inflicting damage. Yes, yes...there are ways of getting around just about everything. But such defenses ultimately require resources and care. It's simply not practical to defend against everything.

 

[Cergorach]

A couple of ideas that use the feature "don't mess with the universe":
1.) Next time he tries to use the finger spell, make him a pin cushion, hit him with two dozen arrows (more if he is really high level), don't kill him, but get the point across that it's really bad to try to get hit.
2.) Prepare a spell caster with a web spell, that way he wouldn't get the next spell off.
3.) Next time he pulls the finger spell out of his hat of tricks let it complete, let every enemy look his way slowly (for cinematic effect), and charge him (learning the hardway that you shouldn't call attention to yourself as a spellcaster).
4.) Pull the same trick on the party, but better. When they lay in ambush use a very convincing illusion to trigger it. Let everyone attack the illusion and then let the real bad guys appear free to act.

Just let the players feel that the world they game in has some sort of cosmic 'justice', don't flaunt it, just give them a hint... *grins evily*

 

[Kilroy]

I went OUT OF MY WAY TO MAKE CLEAR IN PREVIOUS POSTS THAT I DON'T READY ACTIONS TO MAKE SPELLCASTERS "USELESS" NOR TO STOP ANYONE'S FUN. I DON'T WANT TO STOP SPELLCASTING I DO HOWEVER WANT BAD GUYS TO DO INTELLIGENT THINGS WHEN LOOKING DOWN THE BARREL OF A MAGICAL HOWITZER.

If you don't want to stop spellcasting, why remove his "do nothing" cantrip? It seems like a perfectly good use of a spell. There are piles of swift action 1st level spells now, and some of them are pretty powerful, so featherfall being broken certainly isn't the issue. 0th level is about right for a 'do not much' swift spell.

It's one thing to make every guy with a bow want and know how to stop a wizard. That's fine, in character, even if it is a waste of actions, depressingly routine, and not particularly in my adventure-movie-D&D idiom. It's quite another thing to come screaming on an internet forum that a player might be abusing a spell to let him get through your tried and true "I DON'T WANT TO STOP SPELLCASTING" tactic. You give pretty mixed signals for someone who doesn't want to stop spellcasting.

That said, all that effort is pretty wasted. Unless characters have made some wierd design decisions, all the classes are pretty evenly matched for "making mooks dead" ability, and having a major part of every other opposing force do nothing in a fight but try to keep one guy from casting seems like really screwed up encounter design. It sounds like you may be more at home playing war games than D&D.

 

[sullivan]

Well thanks to my sporadic 24/7 job 48 hours has turned into 3+ weeks....

For anyone [not KD] still interested in the subject of RAW of whether Feather Fall takes "extra effort" beyond normal Free Actions, but is incabable of solving the logic equation "A and (A or B)" to "A", please refer to the clarification of Swift And Immediate Actions, page 138/139 in the Complete Adventurer. I don't have Complete Arcane or Complete Divine [yet], but it's likely in there too at the beginning of the Spells chapter. This clarification is really only an extra language definition for what the core rules are that allows the ease of defining the extention of the one-per-round for Quickened spells to be applied to the now larger body that includes the addition of Quickened [non-spell] ki powers and such.

Anyway, onto the next thread.