My warrior-mage has 4 Fighter levels--let's make them count!
- Thread starter Felon
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Caliban said:
Well, if you do wizard or sorcerer, you're getting a worse HD and then have to deal with the armor issue. I know what you're saying though. I have considered sorcerer.
It's a personal thing, but seeing folks exploit the open-ended nature of shapeshifting spells is off-putting to me and, more importantly, I'm sure it will be off-putting to the DM. I want to be a badass that other players will see and go "Whoa! What a badass! Hope I never piss him off!", not that they'll look at and say "What? You're a lizardman now? For how long? Sorry, Felon, that's just horseshit". Of course, it is a fine line.
Haven't heard of wraithstrike...where's it from?
Yes, I'll be all offense. I've played lots of rogues, who are also paper tigers. It's all good.
I'm buidling the classic idea of a warrior-mage--a guy who intersperses devastating melee attacks with spectacular offensive spells. Buffing warrior-mages can be nasty, but this build will be both dangerous and fun. Having said that, Fist of Stone from the Complete Arcane is a 1st-level spell that provides a +6 Str bonus.
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Bront
The man with the probe
Someone commented earlier on Truestrike working with PA and CE, but it doesn't work as well with 2WF, as you only get the bonus on your next attack. I think Enlarge is the friend of the Melee mage, if you can learn it. Reach, increased weapon damage, increased strength, and increased size modifiers for maneuvers like trip or disarm. I'd pick it up at 3rd Warmie if you don't have it already.
I had a fun warrior archer mage, which worked well because he kept out of Melee with the bow. Amazingly, he was nearly as devistating as the dwarven fighter because he tended to get extra attacks with Rapid Shot, and was strong enough to still get bonus damage with his longbow. And the ranged feats stacked with his ranged touch spells, to make it even more devistating. I was planning on going Arcane Archer with the build (Not sure if I was going to go more than a few levels into it), but as a Wiz 5/Fighter 1/Elderich Knight 2, the character was a lean, mean, fighting machine. And oh darn, he had to use an L2 spell to cast mage Armor for 12 hours, the +4 AC that works against incorperal has it's uses.
I had a fun warrior archer mage, which worked well because he kept out of Melee with the bow. Amazingly, he was nearly as devistating as the dwarven fighter because he tended to get extra attacks with Rapid Shot, and was strong enough to still get bonus damage with his longbow. And the ranged feats stacked with his ranged touch spells, to make it even more devistating. I was planning on going Arcane Archer with the build (Not sure if I was going to go more than a few levels into it), but as a Wiz 5/Fighter 1/Elderich Knight 2, the character was a lean, mean, fighting machine. And oh darn, he had to use an L2 spell to cast mage Armor for 12 hours, the +4 AC that works against incorperal has it's uses.
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
Nahh. The smart play is to forget about warmage and go with sorcerer or wizard. Caliban has given the basic overview of the problem with a warmage, but I'll approach it from a different angle.
Warmages are not fighter mages and have little if any synergy with the fighting classes. What warmages are is sorcerers whose spell-list is basically the evocation list plus a few others. Now, that's well and good if you want to play a mage who blows things up with balls of fire or orbs of acid, but if you're doing that, you're not getting any use out of the four fighter levels. They don't increase your DCs. They don't give you better spells. They don't give you more spells. In fact, unless you take practiced spellcaster, they make your spells do less damage.
If you're going to take 4 fighter levels, without suffering a net decrease in power, you need to get some things that are as good as four caster levels and two levels higher spells. What kind of stuff can make up for that?
Well, the fighter levels give you some hit points, more base attack, weapon and armor proficiencies, and qualify you for spellsword and eldritch knight. You also get weapon specialization and a number of feats. You'll notice that all of those things make you better at fighting and do nothing for your spellcasting ability. So, if you're comparing yourself to a mage, you'll always look worse.
But what if you compare yourself to a fighter? You want to be a badass with your swords. Well, you're giving up at least two points of base attack (2 points if you go Ftr 4/Sor 4/Spellsword 3 (Complete Warrior)/Eldritch Knight the rest; it's 3 points if you go Ftr 4/Sor 6/Eldritch Knight), a bunch of hit points, and feats. What you get out of that has to be worth it. So what do your spells give you.
If you're a warmage, you get (IIRC) true strike, fist of stone (lvl 1), whirling blade (lvl 2), blades of fire (lvl 2), and fire shield (lvl 3), and that's about it. The various orb spells can substitute for a bow and you get a few other options but not many.
If you're a sorcerer, on the other hand, you've got a lot more to play with:
1. shield (get decent AC even when wielding a two-handed weapon
true strike (good synergy with power attack and combat expertise)
ray of enfeeblement (good defense and great synergy with improved trip)
fist of stone
critical strike (complete adventurer--swift spell doubles threat range and gives you 1d6 sneak attack for one round)
swift expeditious retreat (CV swift spell, +30 speed for 1 round)
protection from evil
2. wraithstrike (CV swift spell--all attacks are touch attacks for one round--great synergy with power attack, combat expertise, Arcane Strike, and whirling blade)
Alter Self (I know you said you don't want to shapechange but it's a good ability)
Swift Fly (fly at 60 for one round as a swift spell)
See Invisible (invisible foes are the bane of fighters without a way to see them)
false life (get more hit points)
darkvision
blur (OK, I think the spell sucks, but some people like it)
3. heroism (+2 to hit, saves, and skills)
magic circle vs. evil (+2 to AC and saves vs. evil, immunity to druids--oops, I mean non-good summoned creatures)
greater magic weapon (buff your weapons)
keen edge (buff your weapons)
fly (flying foes are also a pain for melee fighters)
displacement
blink (good defense and an offensive bonus (denies foes dexterity and gives +2 atk) as well as marginal utility)
haste (buff yourself and your party)
4. Greater invisibility
stoneskin
fire shield (not as good as you might think because usually you want to avoid getting hit and fire shield only works if they hit)
dimension door (good for grappling and escaping)
anticipate teleportation (because who likes being scried and fried)
polymorph (become the monsters you fight--even though you don't want to)
As you can see, there's a lot on the sor/wiz list that synergizes very nicely with the abilities of a melee fighter. The warmage list doesn't have most of those spells.
A warmage/fighter will, for the most part be an inferior warmage who is casting fireball when normal warmages are casting empowered fireballs or an inferior fighter who is swinging twice for 1d8+6 when real fighters are swinging three times for 1d8+9 at a higher attack bonus. A fighter/sorcerer, on the other hand, can use more of his magic to make himself fight better.
Warmages are not fighter mages and have little if any synergy with the fighting classes. What warmages are is sorcerers whose spell-list is basically the evocation list plus a few others. Now, that's well and good if you want to play a mage who blows things up with balls of fire or orbs of acid, but if you're doing that, you're not getting any use out of the four fighter levels. They don't increase your DCs. They don't give you better spells. They don't give you more spells. In fact, unless you take practiced spellcaster, they make your spells do less damage.
If you're going to take 4 fighter levels, without suffering a net decrease in power, you need to get some things that are as good as four caster levels and two levels higher spells. What kind of stuff can make up for that?
Well, the fighter levels give you some hit points, more base attack, weapon and armor proficiencies, and qualify you for spellsword and eldritch knight. You also get weapon specialization and a number of feats. You'll notice that all of those things make you better at fighting and do nothing for your spellcasting ability. So, if you're comparing yourself to a mage, you'll always look worse.
But what if you compare yourself to a fighter? You want to be a badass with your swords. Well, you're giving up at least two points of base attack (2 points if you go Ftr 4/Sor 4/Spellsword 3 (Complete Warrior)/Eldritch Knight the rest; it's 3 points if you go Ftr 4/Sor 6/Eldritch Knight), a bunch of hit points, and feats. What you get out of that has to be worth it. So what do your spells give you.
If you're a warmage, you get (IIRC) true strike, fist of stone (lvl 1), whirling blade (lvl 2), blades of fire (lvl 2), and fire shield (lvl 3), and that's about it. The various orb spells can substitute for a bow and you get a few other options but not many.
If you're a sorcerer, on the other hand, you've got a lot more to play with:
1. shield (get decent AC even when wielding a two-handed weapon
true strike (good synergy with power attack and combat expertise)
ray of enfeeblement (good defense and great synergy with improved trip)
fist of stone
critical strike (complete adventurer--swift spell doubles threat range and gives you 1d6 sneak attack for one round)
swift expeditious retreat (CV swift spell, +30 speed for 1 round)
protection from evil
2. wraithstrike (CV swift spell--all attacks are touch attacks for one round--great synergy with power attack, combat expertise, Arcane Strike, and whirling blade)
Alter Self (I know you said you don't want to shapechange but it's a good ability)
Swift Fly (fly at 60 for one round as a swift spell)
See Invisible (invisible foes are the bane of fighters without a way to see them)
false life (get more hit points)
darkvision
blur (OK, I think the spell sucks, but some people like it)
3. heroism (+2 to hit, saves, and skills)
magic circle vs. evil (+2 to AC and saves vs. evil, immunity to druids--oops, I mean non-good summoned creatures)
greater magic weapon (buff your weapons)
keen edge (buff your weapons)
fly (flying foes are also a pain for melee fighters)
displacement
blink (good defense and an offensive bonus (denies foes dexterity and gives +2 atk) as well as marginal utility)
haste (buff yourself and your party)
4. Greater invisibility
stoneskin
fire shield (not as good as you might think because usually you want to avoid getting hit and fire shield only works if they hit)
dimension door (good for grappling and escaping)
anticipate teleportation (because who likes being scried and fried)
polymorph (become the monsters you fight--even though you don't want to)
As you can see, there's a lot on the sor/wiz list that synergizes very nicely with the abilities of a melee fighter. The warmage list doesn't have most of those spells.
A warmage/fighter will, for the most part be an inferior warmage who is casting fireball when normal warmages are casting empowered fireballs or an inferior fighter who is swinging twice for 1d8+6 when real fighters are swinging three times for 1d8+9 at a higher attack bonus. A fighter/sorcerer, on the other hand, can use more of his magic to make himself fight better.
Felon said:Hmm. I'm actually thinking the smart play now is to take a warmage level at 3rd and grab Practiced Spellcaster then. Then maybe Battle Caster at 6th. Too many options too early, not enough later. Ain't that always the way?
Thanee
First Post
I also think that warmage is not a good idea, there. Warmage and fighter complement each other pretty much in no way. There is no synergy to speak of.
I'd strongly consider wizard or sorcerer (if you definitely want spontaneous casting, generally wizard is the better choice here, because you already 'lose' a few levels from your spellcasting ability, wizards also tend to work better as multiclass than sorcerers, and finally Int is more useful as a prerequisite for Combat Expertise).
The weaker hit points is only a rather small difference (6 hit points total, if you compare warmage and sorcerer, even less if you compare with wizard, since you need one fewer level in the class to qualify for the PrC). False Life alone more than makes up for that!
Bye
Thanee
I'd strongly consider wizard or sorcerer (if you definitely want spontaneous casting, generally wizard is the better choice here, because you already 'lose' a few levels from your spellcasting ability, wizards also tend to work better as multiclass than sorcerers, and finally Int is more useful as a prerequisite for Combat Expertise).
The weaker hit points is only a rather small difference (6 hit points total, if you compare warmage and sorcerer, even less if you compare with wizard, since you need one fewer level in the class to qualify for the PrC). False Life alone more than makes up for that!
Bye
Thanee
silentspace
First Post
I'd try to avoid losing spellcasting levels. I'd go with two fighter levels max, personally. If you have access to Complete Warrior, 1 level of Spellsword is good. If you have access to Draconomicon, 1 level of Dragonslayer is also good, but it has steeper prereqs though.
The main bennie of 4 fighter levels is the W.Specialization.
Question: Why Improved Buckler Defense when, with Fighter levels, you could take Improved Shield Bash (keep Shield AC bonus while using it as a weapon)? Is it the "hands free" thing? If so, go with Datsana/Armor sleeves instead (+1AC that stacks with light armor & shield)- it doesn't take up a hand at all, and you don't need the feat to keep the AC bonus.
Just for the record- check out BoED's Asuras Shield- with the right PC build, an offhand shield can be as nasty as almost any primary weapon.
One of my favorite weapons right now is the Flail. Its a 1 handed bludgeoning weapon (which means it affects most monsters, esp. undead) that does 1d8 AND it can be used with the Expertise/Trip/Disarm Feat path with a +2 bonus- I believe that makes it the only non-exotic weapon (besides the Heavy Flail) with that benefit.
I like Combat Reflexes as well...
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the Improved Unarmed combat Feat path. Your PC is already lightly armored, you can use fist strikes for channeling/storing spells for purposes of the Spellsword PrCl, you will ALWAYS have at least one hand free for spellcasting, and you will never be disarmed.
Question: Why Improved Buckler Defense when, with Fighter levels, you could take Improved Shield Bash (keep Shield AC bonus while using it as a weapon)? Is it the "hands free" thing? If so, go with Datsana/Armor sleeves instead (+1AC that stacks with light armor & shield)- it doesn't take up a hand at all, and you don't need the feat to keep the AC bonus.
Just for the record- check out BoED's Asuras Shield- with the right PC build, an offhand shield can be as nasty as almost any primary weapon.
One of my favorite weapons right now is the Flail. Its a 1 handed bludgeoning weapon (which means it affects most monsters, esp. undead) that does 1d8 AND it can be used with the Expertise/Trip/Disarm Feat path with a +2 bonus- I believe that makes it the only non-exotic weapon (besides the Heavy Flail) with that benefit.
I like Combat Reflexes as well...
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the Improved Unarmed combat Feat path. Your PC is already lightly armored, you can use fist strikes for channeling/storing spells for purposes of the Spellsword PrCl, you will ALWAYS have at least one hand free for spellcasting, and you will never be disarmed.
Elder-Basilisk said:
Seems like your definition of "synergizing" revolves around using spells exclusively to trick out your melee attacks. It's sort of like saying a fighter with two-weapon fighting shouldn't prepare himself for situations where he needs a bow, because all that preparation fails to augment his ability to use melee weapons. I don't agree that's the only good use for magic. I think offensive spells compliment a warrior's combat ability because there is no one attack that's ideal for every situation.
Hehe--well, of course the build's going to sound like crap if you just compare it to a single-classed character and then focus on the relative shortcomings. Multi-classed characters have shortcomings. A warmage/fighter will be tougher and more capable in melee than a straight warmage, and will have much more offensive flexibility than a guy who just swings a sword.
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