My warrior-mage has 4 Fighter levels--let's make them count!

Thanee said:
@Felon: I don't think EB means over-specialization there.

It certainly sounds like it.

You have two sets of abilities (purely offensive spellcasting, weapon use), which are independant of each other and one cannot be used to enhance the other, you can only use either the one or the other at a time.

Not necessarily. See my comments about fist of stone, fire shield, and ring of blades. There's other stuff too, like whirling blade & blades of fire. There's not a heap of stuff, but if I was a sorcerer I certainly wouldn't have a heap of anything.

The big downside is, that each of those ability sets is greatly limited by the multiclassing, so you basically end up having two sets of 'inferior' (meaning... sub par; not matching your ECL in terms of power level; etc) abilities

See, again, you're talking like I don't have a handle on the concepts involved in the game. I assure you, I do.

I don't know of anything, that will make up for the loss on the fighter side. You get some nifty magical range attacks as a compensation, but as explained above, those are just another form of weaponry.

Yes, and in some situations, those spells will be a better weapon than just striking with a sword. A 10d6 fireball can easily outstrip the cumulative damage a fighter would do with a charge, even with a Cleave that he's unlikely to get at that level. And vice-versa, even aside from the melee offense side, there will be times I'll be glad I have the boost in HP, BAB, and Fort saves from the fighter levels.

And especially when it comes to combat, such a weakness is bound to show, and then the question is, whether you will enjoy playing a character with such a weakness in his main focus (combat). If you don't have a problem with it, that's cool, but it's still helpful to point that out, I think. :)

It's constructive to point it out, and it's constructive to rebutt that point. I appreciate your comments and I can only shrug if you think my disagreement indicates an ignorance of character-design fundamentals.
 

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Incidentally, based on the discussions here, I am giving serious thought to changing the two-bladed sword to something else--say a bastard sword or a great falchion from Sandstorm, then go with a light shield or buckler. Personally, I've always felt that if you're going to take Weapon Specialization, you should get as many attacks as you can out of it, but I think I'll get more mileage out of one heavy attack, especially if I opt for the Havoc Mage PrC, which not only is easy to enter, but seems to mesh with the concept of a guy who combines melee attacks with fireballs.

EDIT--On a side note, can anyone recall the name of the warrior-mage from the Night Stalkers Video game? Remember, he had that giant falchion?
 
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Felon said:
Not necessarily. See my comments about fist of stone, fire shield, and ring of blades. There's other stuff too, like whirling blade & blades of fire. There's not a heap of stuff, but if I was a sorcerer I certainly wouldn't have a heap of anything.

Yeah, I have seen that, but read it after posting the above.

See, again, you're talking like I don't have a handle on the concepts involved in the game. I assure you, I do.

Ok.

As a sidenote, I don't really see where this sounds that way... explaining the concept (as I see it) is mostly a means to make sure, that my position is correctly perceived. If some of that is not necessary, you can easily skip it or just browse through, however, if it is and would be missing, then only confusion could come out of that. :)

Yes, and in some situations, those spells will be a better weapon than just striking with a sword.

Of course. That's where it's 'better' than something like combining sorcerer and wizard.

Bye
Thanee
 

Thanee said:
As a sidenote, I don't really see where this sounds that way... explaining the concept (as I see it) is mostly a means to make sure, that my position is correctly perceived.

Fair enough.
 

There is also the hexblade. Spellcasting from level 4 on (practiced Spellcaster is your friend), full BAB, light armor (Battle Caster is your friend), lots of buffing spells and a nice enemy-debuffing ability (curse). A familiar on top of that (Improved Familiar lets you take a krenshar as your familiar, and from there it's Flanking City).
 

One level of Sorc and you could then go into Dragon Disciple, which synergizes nicely with a reach-weapon focused Fighter4. For your two spells, take Feather Fall & True Strike, which can be cast in Fullplate. :)

-- N
 

If you've already decided that you want to play a fighter/warmage, say so then go ahead and do it. But if you post asking about whether to play a fighter/warmage or fighter/sorcerer, then you shouldn't be surprised if you actually get advice rather than affirmation of what you want to do anyway.

Now if you really want this:
Felon said:
I want to be a badass that other players will see and go "Whoa! What a badass! Hope I never piss him off!", not that they'll look at and say "What? You're a lizardman now? For how long? Sorry, Felon, that's just horseshit".
then I would assume that you want to make a character that other players will actually look at and say "whoah! What a badass!" not a character that other players will look at and say "well, at least he's a good roleplayer" or "he's doing the best he can with what he's got.

The position you seem to be advocating is that characters must be extremely specialized in order to be effective at all. I just don't share that outlook.

I wouldn't call my position "extremely specialized." I would call it "no more than one or two levels behind the iconics." A straight up iconic 10th level fighter will have Str 17 (15 start +2 lvl) plus a belt (which you may or may not have because there are different equipment priorities for a warmage), greater weapon focus, weapon specialization, and a +2 or +3 equivalent weapon. If we stat that out, his attacks look something like +17/+12 (+19/+14 with belt) for 1d10+7 damage (1d10+9 including the belt). If he's using a two handed weapon, that's dice +11 damage with a +4 belt.

Now, if you want, on 36 points and using multiclassing or non-core materials, you can do a lot better than that. Go 1/2 orc 20 starting strength Fighter/Barbarian/Exotic Weapon Master with a spiked chain and you're attacking at +21/+21/+16 for 2d4+19 when raging. Use a bastard sword two handed and you're only making two attacks but you're doing 1d10+24 (Uncanny Blows) per shot. If he manages to pull the feats together for Leap Attack and Shock Trooper, he can do even more impressive charges.

Now, if you're willing to be mediocre in combat rather than badass, you can give up a little bit of power (even vis a vis the iconics) for flexibility without becoming pathetic. Fighter 6/Rogue 4? It works OK. You won't impress anyone with your rogue skills, but sneak attack, uncanny dodge, and evasion will often make up for losing one point of base attack bonus, etc. But if you get to the point that your capabilities are pretty similar to an iconic character 3-4 levels lower than you, you're close to losing the ability to function in your chosen role. If you want to be badass, on the other hand, you need to be better than Tordek, Lidda, Mialee, and the other iconics in whatever role you play in the party.

EB, it sounds like you're heaping criticism without even having read the discussion up to the point where you joined in. He won't be casting a 5d6 fireball at 10th level, he'll be casting a 10d6 fireball. And in melee, his foes will get chewed up by a ring of blades or fire shield while he makes the exact same number of attacks per round as the straight fighter and enjoying the same benefit of Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization he is. That's synergy, my friend. The build has plenty going for it.

Sure I read the posts before mine. That's where I got the impression that you wanted to create a "badass" character rather than just one who doesn't suck. (Incidentally, every one that discussed the option of Warmage or Sorcerer said that Fighter/Sorcerer is a better choice than Fighter/Warmage). I don't deny that your character will have some things going for him as a fighter/warmage (most of the spells you list are on my previous list of synergies that you could get from the warmage--I left out ring of blades because I don't like the fact that your cleric friend will need to take the damage when he comes up to heal you). My point is that there's a lot more that you could have going for you as a fighter/sorcerer and that, since you're giving up a LOT of power in your chosen roles to get the amount of flexibility you want, you need to have more going for your character than you'll have as a ftr/warmage... if you really want other players to say "wow, that character is badass." The warmage list doesn't have as many synergies as the sorceror list and the synergies it does have are not as impressive as the synergies on the sorcerer list.

There's no point served in you lecturing on how the game works. Fact is, I actually know how to play this game very well--as well as you do, I suspect. This character will be very viable. Will he be outright broken and abusive like the polymorph fighter that I've seen engender resentment from both players and DM as he constantly tries to rush everyone through the dungeon at a breakneck pace before his minute/level spell runs out? No. He'll actually be what a warrior-mage should be; potent at wielding both arms and spells, able to overcome many of the shortcomings of both classes.

You must have a different definition of potent that I haven't heard of. The character will be roughly as effective in melee combat as a rogue without sneak attack (same base attack and similar hit points but somewhat different abilities) and will be able to cast damaging spells roughly 2/3 as effectively as a single class mage (who can empower everything he casts, and match you spell for spell until you run out and he still has everything 2nd level or less remaining). All that, and really the only thing you can do that a straightforward fighter can't do is area effect damage. (Since warmages don't get spells like haste, blink, or fly).

If that's your cup of tea then I wish you well, but nobody is going to comment on your character being badass unless they're used to playing significantly lower level characters or the rest of the party is really weak. (Not that this character will be really weak, but he won't stand out as effective unless the party is really weak).
 

Felon said:
So, what to do at third level? Oversized 2WF is a bit of a waste with a two-bladed sword, but it does allow me to use power attack with each end at a reduced penalty.

No, it doesn't.

Oversized TWF lets you use a one-handed weapon in your off hand while taking penalties as if it were light. It doesn't let you treat a light weapon as if it were one-handed for purposes of Power Attack. The off-end of your two-bladed sword is considered a light weapon, so Oversized TWF has no effect on it, and Power Attack gives no bonus to it.

Alternatively, I can go the Monkey Grip route and have a large two-bladed sword with both ends doing 2d6...

Read Monkey Grip again.

-Hyp.
 

Hi Felon,

Obviously you want to play a character who is a 'Fighter' (tough, combatative, hard man etc) and a 'Magician' (whose eldritch power smites his foes etc)*, and you also sound pretty committed to the 'character' of the character, so to speak.

Consider ignoring the fluff surrounding the classes, and looking at them purely as rules 'allowed' to build your concept.

For example: I know that this isn't exacty what you want, but if you have access the Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane, it is possible to create a very proficient:
Swashbuckler 3 / Evoker X / Spellword 1 that allows you fight as a fighter when appropriate, and still be a potent enough 'blaster' type arcanist.
. The level of Spellsword allows your to wear light armour
. The Swashbuckler gets his Int bonus to damage with a variety of weapons, which synergises well the Evoker, and removes the need for weapon spec.
. The whole thing leads perfectly well into Eldrtich Knight (full BAB + Spell Progression).

If we just ignore the various class flavour biases, but stay completely 'within the rules', we can describe this guy however we want - don't like nancy swashbucklers ? Fine, cut all the flavour text - your are making your own flavour anyway, which I'm guessing will suit your group and style better than WOTCs flavour.

I'm not saying "this is the best build to suit your vision" (only you can know which one is), or trying to tell what sort of character you should play, but I am hopefully provinging some ideas that are intetresting, even if not eventually useful to you, and built right, the guy WILL count.

Rassilon.

*I've been reading too much OOTS
 

Nifft said:
One level of Sorc and you could then go into Dragon Disciple, which synergizes nicely with a reach-weapon focused Fighter4. For your two spells, take Feather Fall & True Strike, which can be cast in Fullplate. :)

Not a bad idea at all.
 

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