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Neverwinter Nights 2!!!
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trancejeremy
Adventurer
The more I play this, the more I'm starting to think that KOTOR2's problems weren't that it was rushed, but simply that Obsidian doesn't make games I like. I found a lot of KOTOR2 to be tedious, and I'm finding a lot of NWN2 to be that as well. Some Most of the dungeons. Having to run around and backtrack to find "ore" to upgrade my troops armor. Etc.
Similarly, I don't like how the NPC's stories unfold. In the original KOTOR (and NWN, I believe), it was sort of doled out gradually. But in this (and KOTOR2), you have to generally keep going through the same conversation tree, and hope something different shows up, or you have enough influence to get a different result. But it's even worse in this. I don't know more about that elf hippie 30 hours into the game, than I did 3 hours - her conversation tree is still the same. Or anyone else. It's a shame, because they are interesting NPCs.
It's actually funny, I've been writing a review of NWN2, and now I'm going back and reading a review I wrote about KOTOR2 (which I also didn't like), and I'm basically complaining about the same things.
OTOH, with something like NWN2, is the real value (or point) of the game just the toolset? I dunno. But for me anyway, being on dialup, means I can't generally play user made ones (too big in most cases) or constantly download patches/hak packs in most cases. So a moot point for me.
Anyway, it really makes you apreciate Bioware's efforts more though. I just wish they weren't going in the action RPG direction (Jade Empire, Mass Effect), which I can't play well.
Similarly, I don't like how the NPC's stories unfold. In the original KOTOR (and NWN, I believe), it was sort of doled out gradually. But in this (and KOTOR2), you have to generally keep going through the same conversation tree, and hope something different shows up, or you have enough influence to get a different result. But it's even worse in this. I don't know more about that elf hippie 30 hours into the game, than I did 3 hours - her conversation tree is still the same. Or anyone else. It's a shame, because they are interesting NPCs.
It's actually funny, I've been writing a review of NWN2, and now I'm going back and reading a review I wrote about KOTOR2 (which I also didn't like), and I'm basically complaining about the same things.
OTOH, with something like NWN2, is the real value (or point) of the game just the toolset? I dunno. But for me anyway, being on dialup, means I can't generally play user made ones (too big in most cases) or constantly download patches/hak packs in most cases. So a moot point for me.
Anyway, it really makes you apreciate Bioware's efforts more though. I just wish they weren't going in the action RPG direction (Jade Empire, Mass Effect), which I can't play well.
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Neo
Explorer
I love the new classes, the more 3.5 approach and the prestiges as well as ther sub races etc... however gripes so far would be..
NEGATIVES
items like helms not appearing on the NPC's very basic cheesey oversight, Influence thing again like Trance mentions with regard to the NPC's you just dont seem to learn anything about them,,also if things start going backwards influence wise thier arent enough actual instances to turn it around so a couple of off decision choices and you may as well forget that particular NPC as far as conversations go as you AREN'T going to learn anything full stop.
Camera control is hideous and far too often obscured by stuff, requiring constant tweaking..which is annoying. Also NPC's getting stuck in corridors and rather than repositioning themselves so they can attack a foe they simply stand there in a combat stance and do nothing... so you have to pause, select them, move them yourself and unpause...which can be tedious.
Also the lack of appearance customisation during character creation beyond choosing a face, hairstyle and colours was a disappointment especially in a game that will be so massively played online as "Individuality" in a sea of others needs to be more extensive than just name.. lol Cant even make a fat dwarf anymore
NPC levelling.. to be honest if I cant multiclass them as "I" choose I dont really see the point of being able to level them as the decision isnt really mine..its the stories.
Graphical Improvement, they are nice the game is undoubtedly pretty..(though much of it is non interactable window dressing) perhaps I havent gotten that far yet but I had hoped to see some weather?
NPC control... can be a bit frustrating at times, I may be missing something but if i choose the rogue and want to scout ahead with her..how the heck do I stop the rest of the party from following the lead once she gets so far away..? Also item control is pretty much integral once the npcs get a few items but I found iof they have craft alchemy skill and components it kinda shoots you in the foot as they start using components flask of acid, thunderstones etc... it would have been nice to have a use items but not craftable components option in the AI behaviour. I also wanted to be able to have someone specifically use just ranged weapons in combat but the ai tends to have them switch out instantly and charge into melee? I guess what im saying is the AI behaviour controls are fairly disappointing in how much can be controlled..you essentially have to switch everything off and micromanage every npc yourself in order to get any real effective or sensible use out of the npc's. Its not bad so much as far too limited in how much say you can have on thier activities.
That is pretty much for the negatives..so far.
POSITIVES
As noted love the sub races (Though smurf sized elves...grrr... they should be tolkien sized lol) and the level adjustment.
Like the Warlock class its nice because its so different.
Prestige Classes like those, though more (which will no doubt come in expansions) would have been nice, as mentioned previously at least one option for every base class I feel should have been provided as standard before any other prestige classes were implemented, if only to ensure every base class had an "appropriate" option. Yes some of the classes can make use of some of the other prestige classes, but that isnt really the point.
Single Player Game, its fun and interesting and the cut scenes and conversations can be pretty funny when the NPC's are involved.
Cloaks and Dresses.... about frikkin time lol and they look good to boot (hopefully rideable mounts will show up in a future expansion).
Crafting and Enchanting, I have to say I really like this system its much more expansive and interesting the NWN1's, only gripe so far is that producing nonmagical weapons and armour as far as the single player campaign goes is almost instantly made redundant by the time you get to a trader who actually does sell moulds and components to do so. But besides that its a nice system (just remember not to sell every gem you find! lol)
Music, I really like the music especially the dramatic tunes some of them are very reminiscent of the kind of music we saw in the LOTR films and it goes a long way to building up excitement to tense encounters etc..
NEGATIVES
items like helms not appearing on the NPC's very basic cheesey oversight, Influence thing again like Trance mentions with regard to the NPC's you just dont seem to learn anything about them,,also if things start going backwards influence wise thier arent enough actual instances to turn it around so a couple of off decision choices and you may as well forget that particular NPC as far as conversations go as you AREN'T going to learn anything full stop.
Camera control is hideous and far too often obscured by stuff, requiring constant tweaking..which is annoying. Also NPC's getting stuck in corridors and rather than repositioning themselves so they can attack a foe they simply stand there in a combat stance and do nothing... so you have to pause, select them, move them yourself and unpause...which can be tedious.
Also the lack of appearance customisation during character creation beyond choosing a face, hairstyle and colours was a disappointment especially in a game that will be so massively played online as "Individuality" in a sea of others needs to be more extensive than just name.. lol Cant even make a fat dwarf anymore
NPC levelling.. to be honest if I cant multiclass them as "I" choose I dont really see the point of being able to level them as the decision isnt really mine..its the stories.
Graphical Improvement, they are nice the game is undoubtedly pretty..(though much of it is non interactable window dressing) perhaps I havent gotten that far yet but I had hoped to see some weather?
NPC control... can be a bit frustrating at times, I may be missing something but if i choose the rogue and want to scout ahead with her..how the heck do I stop the rest of the party from following the lead once she gets so far away..? Also item control is pretty much integral once the npcs get a few items but I found iof they have craft alchemy skill and components it kinda shoots you in the foot as they start using components flask of acid, thunderstones etc... it would have been nice to have a use items but not craftable components option in the AI behaviour. I also wanted to be able to have someone specifically use just ranged weapons in combat but the ai tends to have them switch out instantly and charge into melee? I guess what im saying is the AI behaviour controls are fairly disappointing in how much can be controlled..you essentially have to switch everything off and micromanage every npc yourself in order to get any real effective or sensible use out of the npc's. Its not bad so much as far too limited in how much say you can have on thier activities.
That is pretty much for the negatives..so far.
POSITIVES
As noted love the sub races (Though smurf sized elves...grrr... they should be tolkien sized lol) and the level adjustment.
Like the Warlock class its nice because its so different.
Prestige Classes like those, though more (which will no doubt come in expansions) would have been nice, as mentioned previously at least one option for every base class I feel should have been provided as standard before any other prestige classes were implemented, if only to ensure every base class had an "appropriate" option. Yes some of the classes can make use of some of the other prestige classes, but that isnt really the point.
Single Player Game, its fun and interesting and the cut scenes and conversations can be pretty funny when the NPC's are involved.
Cloaks and Dresses.... about frikkin time lol and they look good to boot (hopefully rideable mounts will show up in a future expansion).
Crafting and Enchanting, I have to say I really like this system its much more expansive and interesting the NWN1's, only gripe so far is that producing nonmagical weapons and armour as far as the single player campaign goes is almost instantly made redundant by the time you get to a trader who actually does sell moulds and components to do so. But besides that its a nice system (just remember not to sell every gem you find! lol)
Music, I really like the music especially the dramatic tunes some of them are very reminiscent of the kind of music we saw in the LOTR films and it goes a long way to building up excitement to tense encounters etc..
Steel_Wind
Legend
Neo said:
What you are asking for and classify as a "cheesey oversight" is, in fact, a CRAP LOAD of 3d modeling work. Each head in the game would have to receive one additional model, per helm model in the game.
I don't have the game on this computer I am writing from, but this "cheesey oversight" is certainly in the order of 500 additional models, at least.
There are technical reasons for these decisions. I appreciate that you think the priority Obsidian attached to this is unsatisfactory. Fair enough. But this is not a "cheesey oversight". Not in the least.
It's not wonderful, but I've gotten used to it. I tend to use the free camera. Please note that when in Free Camera mode, you can hold down control and left drag your mouse to slide the camera to a new position. Combined with holding down the mouse wheel to reorient the camera - this gets me through things quite serviceably.
Also the lack of appearance customisation during character creation beyond choosing a face, hairstyle and colours was a disappointment especially in a game that will be so massively played online as "Individuality" in a sea of others needs to be more extensive than just name.. lol Cant even make a fat dwarf anymore
I gather that what you wanted to see was a facial system like Oblivion's combined with phenotypes as existed in NWN1?
Phenotypes add massively to model overhead, worse than open-faced visible helms do. That said, I understand the desire. Request is duly noted.
Yes and no. Moreover, I suggest you get used to this, as this will be the case in the vast majority of community created mods as well.
This game is not NWN1. From a designer's perspective, you have no idea what a relief that is.
In NWN1, because there was no direct control of henchmen, certain abilities, skills and definitely spell use could not be assumed to be "party assets". This meant, from a practical perspective, that the designer had to create a module that could be played by any one single class and race.
This "one size fits all" design forced by NWN1's limitation broke the underlying assumption in D&D's rules which assumes a party based game. Where the PnP rules balance rules for a party based approach - that same approach broke the underlying design of NWN1.
To make a module challenging for one class and yet completable for all others became an elaborate strait jacket on module design. We HATED this. And don't mean just a little - we REVILED this design limitation. Worse, the difficulties this presented increased vastly as the level of the characters went up. There is a term we used to describe this "feature" in NWN1: it was called "suckage".
NWN2 relieves the designer from having to face this problem. Companions are controllable and all spells, feats and skills that the designer assumes will be in place in the party are, in fact, usable and reasonably in place.
What you, as a player, want to be able to do is to interfere with the leveling options for the NPC and thereby have complete control over the NPC character build. While that is understandable, the problem it presents is that by giving you that power, it also enables you to mess up the designer's plans and to unwittingly remove - by your own choice - an assumed ability, skill, feat or spell from the party.
Your choice will, as often as not, break the design of the module. You are, in fact, exchanging choice for enjoyable and balanced gameplay.
So - while I understand your desire, you better get used to it. You are in for a lot more of the same from well crafted community modules. And there is a damn good reasons for it too.
Weather is being enabled in a patch. It was removed during the beta cycle when a problem arose.
No AI will make everyone happy. One option for you to explore is to activate "puppet control" over all NPCs. This puts you in direct control off everyone in the party and the game plays much more like BG2.
It permits you to choose strategies and tactics within combat that actually work. Potions and spells are kept in reserve, fighters hold the front line and a Wizard hangs back (reliably) and waits for his moment, etc..
In short, it plays much more like a PnP session of D&D.
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Simplicity
Explorer
If you don't want Puppet mode, you can also just hold down right-click anywhere other than on a clickable object/character. There's a broadcast command option there. "Hold your ground" will tell your party to stop following you already.
I have just recently completed the official campaign. Overall the game is definitely worth the time/money investment. It feels very much like KOTOR/KOTOR 2 most likely because it is the same engine. The storyline is far superior to the first NWN but did feel a bit unpolished to me. There are moments in the game that feel truly epic and parts that are brilliant role play wise. However there are also many places with little or no reason as to the actions of NPCs and the game definitely suffers from a major case of railroading that may bring back memories of some of the dragon lance modules. The ending sequence with the BBG felt very much like a PS2 game were you have to beat the “End Boss” multiple times. The ending was also very disappointing in a blatant “we want to make a sequel” sort of way with a voice over that sounds like they forgot to record it and some programmer had to do it at the last second.
I think that if they had spent another month or two on the plot adding a few more dialogue options along the way explaining a bit more about why some of the NPCs did what they did or why some of the bad guys chose to do some of the things that the game would have felt much more immersive. To me, besides the linear nature of the game that is mainly due to the nature of the genre, the main downside was the large amount of bugs. I have a P4 2.8 GHz, 1.5 gig mem, Nvidia 6600 system and the game froze probably 3 dozen times during the campaign.
Despite the problems listed above I did think that it was the best story since the BG games. As the bugs are fixed and the community starts cranking out modules I hope that the game will have the same lifetime as its’ predecessor.
I think that if they had spent another month or two on the plot adding a few more dialogue options along the way explaining a bit more about why some of the NPCs did what they did or why some of the bad guys chose to do some of the things that the game would have felt much more immersive. To me, besides the linear nature of the game that is mainly due to the nature of the genre, the main downside was the large amount of bugs. I have a P4 2.8 GHz, 1.5 gig mem, Nvidia 6600 system and the game froze probably 3 dozen times during the campaign.
Despite the problems listed above I did think that it was the best story since the BG games. As the bugs are fixed and the community starts cranking out modules I hope that the game will have the same lifetime as its’ predecessor.
LightPhoenix
First Post
Bozon Bob said:
I'm pretty sure it's not the same engine, but then again I still haven't gotten around to playing either KOTOR.
Otherwise, I pretty much agree. Some NPCs I like (Khelgar, Sand, Neeshka, Shandra) but the rest of them kinda fall flat. Especially Elanee, Casavir, and the cleric.
Also, regarding the Cleric, whose name I don't remember at all... it kind ticks me off that you *have* to use her for the section of Act 2 to progress the story. Well, let me rephrase... using her doesn't, what ticks me off is that you have to spend a slot on her, when I pretty much have my group established already. Doubly sucks because her dialogue isn't that great. Usually when you're forced to use them it's only for their individual sidequests. They should have handled it differently, IMO. Then again, I'm not a game designer.
Steel_Wind said:
The way I understand it, the NPCs use custom heads, and there's clipping issues with displaying the helmets on them. Neeshka seemed to be the worst, but there were issues for many of them. So instead of getting complaints about clipping, they chose to not display the helmets. Somehow, I'm thinking, with regards to appearances, Obsidian just isn't going to win no matter what they do or did, no matter why.
Neo
Explorer
Steel_Wind said:
Ill tell you why i call it a cheesey oversight... firstly if i put any weapon or any armor, cloak etc..on an NPC then just like the PC's thier avatar changes to reflect it.. however if i put a helm on them it doesnt on any except my Main PC.. to that extent it shows that they were aware of the issue but either thought it wasnt important enough or there were as the previous poster mentions possibly issues..either way that makes it cheesey because in this day and age having a game correctly display what you hold/wear is almost "standard" as far as all games in this genre go, so why should we the consumer make exceptions on standards for this sequel..when developer aside the supposedly inferior predecessor game managed to provide on this front?
Its not like every thing in the game needs to show them, just those we the player "Play". because those are the ones whose appearance we are constantly aware of.
Steel_Wind said:
This makes sense. It does remind me of PS:T however, where no matter what equipment the NPCs wore, it didn't change their appearance in the slightest. That having been said, I can understand what you're saying, and it makes sense.
Steel_Wind said:
I'm not sure I'd personally vote for a system like Oblivion's. I've got Oblivion and it is *hard* to make a character who doesn't look like Cro-Magnon or some form of genetic aberration. I'd be satisfied with a patch or expansion giving us more pre-made heads and hairstyles. A "grow/shrink" system like in Guild Wars would be icing on the cake, but lower priority to me.
Banshee
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