D&D 5E New class options in Tasha

[Azzy]

Not really. Well, technically they have the same number of slots, but in practice arcane recovery means wizards get more slots if they take a short rest, and sorcerers get less spells overall because metamagic eats away sorcery points if not slots themselves.

You heard it right, Wizards cast more spells than sorcerers.

Yeah, I forgot to mention that as I was just thinking about the spell slot table. However, you're right—Arcane Recovery gives them effectively more spell slots. I should add the proviso that the sorcerer's Flexible Casting allows them to trade Sorcery Points to spell slots and vice versa (though, using Sorcery Points this way gives you less to use on Metamagic or subclass-specific abilities that are powered by Sorcery Points that compete for usage).

 

[Azzy]

And yet that sorcerer over a series of a short downtime can swap out EVERY SINGLE KNOWN SPELL FOR A SPELL THEY HAVE NEVER KNOWN BEFORE at no cost other than the time. That is INSANE versatility.

So? They have to spend a lot of days to do this. However, it's a complete non-issue considering that this will almost never be done. Like someone else pointed out, players of classes with prepared spells rarely change out their prepared loadout in this edition.

Also, I never said it was game breaking, but it is overly powerful and removes one of the two things a wizard is supposed to be good at: versatility and rituals.

That's why I said overpowered or gamebreaking. Just covering the bases, not just for your particular argument but for anyone else that would make that claim or conflate the two).

That is why I also suggested a downtime rule of 1 workweek per spell level to swap out additional known spells. Even a number of long rests equal to the spell level of the new swapped spell would be somewhat reasonable.

So, swapping out for a 1st level spell, one long rest.
Swapping out for a 2nd level spell, two long rests.
Etc.
Swapping out for a 9th level spell, nine long rests.

But that is the best I can do that to me would be at least better balanced.

If you feel that's how you should house rule, that sounds decent. I don't have a problem with the existing rule (obviously ), so I'm fine with it as-is.

If you still don't see how it is unbalanced and harming wizards, I am guessing you aren't a fan of the class. Because, unless you want to focus on ritual casting, you might as well play a sorcerer and enjoy those metamagics that you get as well.

This last argument doesn't actually speak of this ability overpowering the sorcerer. And, nah, I dig the wizard—I really want to play an abjurer at some point (and some of the other subclasses, too). Ritual Casting, Arcane Recovery, Spell Mastery, and the various features of the subclasses all interest me to play a wizard. Just like Metamagic and the various subclasses interest me in playing a sorcerer. Each class offers something—especially through their subclasses—that make them compelling.

 

[Azzy]

Over all, they were reasonably balanced, now it is definitely in favor of the sorcerer.

Eh, not really. The sorcerer has suffered from having too few Sorcery Points and too few Spells Known at higher levels.

 

[MoonSong]

Eh, not really. The sorcerer has suffered from having too few Sorcery Points and too few Spells Known at higher levels.

Yeah, balanced, when a wizard can replace 1.5 sorcerers. That is sure balanced.

 

[DND_Reborn]

So? They have to spend a lot of days to do this

And in the games why this rule was suggested is because they take a long time to level (IRL and often in game time), so spending a week to learn 7 brand spanking new spells is not a big time-constraint. Also, it is the simple fact they can learn all new spells! That makes them an ultimately versatile caster.

Now, I am not just picking on Sorcerers et. al on this. Clerics, Druids, and Paladins are even worse offenders when it comes to versatility. They already have access to their entire spell list, but by at least balancing that out with selecting prepared spells--it means they can easily find themselves in a situation where they don't have the proper spell prepared.

Just covering the bases, not just for your particular argument but for anyone else that would make that claim or conflate the two).

Fair enough.

If you feel that's how you should house rule, that sounds decent. I don't have a problem with the existing rule (obviously ), so I'm fine with it as-is.

No, we won't be using it. Period. I was more offering that as a compromise for tables that want this but understand it is too much as written.

Eh, not really. The sorcerer has suffered from having too few Sorcery Points and too few Spells Known at higher levels.

Sure they were. Metamagics make up for a LOT in this balance issue. The SP are fine, they are meant to be there when you need them, not all the time.

I will agree Sorcerers get hosed a bit on the known spells. We've house-ruled them up to 18 (start with 2, gain 1 per level up to 17th). But that only affects them at 12th level and higher--which most games never reach so meh.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Yeah, balanced, when a wizard can replace 1.5 sorcerers. That is sure balanced.

At level 1, and then not again until level 18, can a Wizard cast more spells than a Sorcerer. Since Sorcerers can cast as many or more spells per long rest for 16 of the 20 levels, I would say they can cast more in general and certainly a wizard does NOT replace 1.5 sorcerers.

You should check your math.

EDIT: you do have the odd subclass feature here or there which might apply to change this, but that's about it...

 

[Hohige]

I came from the future to say that the discussion will end with Sorcerer x Wizard dueling again.

 

[MoonSong]

At level 1, and then not again until level 18, can a Wizard cast more spells than a Sorcerer. Since Sorcerers can cast as many or more spells per long rest for 16 of the 20 levels, I would say they can cast more in general and certainly a wizard does NOT replace 1.5 sorcerers.

You should check your math.

EDIT: you do have the odd subclass feature here or there which might apply to change this, but that's about it...

I don't know who plays this sorcerer that never metamagics and always gets to cast almost the same number of spells a wizard does -at that point I don't see a point to playing a sorcerer-. Because when you are a sorcerer, you are using metamagic over and over. There are little points left for doing anything else. Most of the time you end up sacrificing slots for even more metamagic (and subclass abilities), and end up casting even less spells per day than a normal spellcaster would. There is a lot of pressure over sorcery points, I don't think I've ever used them to make a spell slot after hitting third level.

 

[Todd Roybark]

And yet that sorcerer over a series of a short downtime can swap out EVERY SINGLE KNOWN SPELL FOR A SPELL THEY HAVE NEVER KNOWN BEFORE at no cost other than the time. That is INSANE versatility.

It is the same versatility a cleric or druid has. At 5th level the Wizard knew Fireball and Animate Dead. My 5th level cleric knows the entire list. For 3 days we rested and I prepared Animate Dead to create/control 4 zombies. When setting out on the adventuring day I swapped many spells out for other ones.

The Wizard knew two spells.

The feature in Tasha's is much less powerful than what prepared casters already do.

If you think wizards are falling behind, just provide more scrolls and spellbooks.
As the DM you have full power to balance this out.

Honestly, I used to feel the same as you, but upon further reflection it isn't a big deal.
The feature takes the pressure off the player to select the optimal choice for Spells Known. It allows them to take either more situational spells, or something they want to try out, or a suboptimal role play choice...without fear they are stuck with a dud spell for a level.

 

[Flamestrike]

It does. The weakness of the sorcerer has been eliminated and with their capacity to add spell slot with sorcery point or even their metamagic... wizards are now obselete.

We've strayed into the realm of hyperbole.

After a long rest, the Sorcerer can swap out a single spell for a spell of the same level.

After a long rest, the Wizard can swap out every single spell they had prepared, for whatever spells they want, of any level, as long as those spells are in their spell book.

I guess the Wizard is 'limited' to spells in his spell-book while the Sorcerer isnt. Of course, the Wizard also has the better spell list to go to than the Sorcerer. A much better spell list in fact.

The Wizard still maintains an advantage of 3-4 more spells prepared than the Sorcerer giving him greater versatility in actual play.

Past 10th level, this gap increases. A 20th level Sorcerer has 15 spells prepared. His Wizard buddy has 25 prepared.

Maybe to you that's 'obsolete' but it aint to me.