D&D 5E New class options in Tasha

[TwoSix]

Now, I am not just picking on Sorcerers et. al on this. Clerics, Druids, and Paladins are even worse offenders when it comes to versatility. They already have access to their entire spell list, but by at least balancing that out with selecting prepared spells--it means they can easily find themselves in a situation where they don't have the proper spell prepared.

This seems odd to me. Preparation is straight up superior to known spells, there's no subtle balancing between them. There was in 3e, when you had to prepare spells in slots ahead of time. But in 5e, preparation is "You just long rested, here's your list (or spell book), pick level+Mod of them." Known spells is "You leveled, pick one new spell and swap an old spell for a new spell. You know level + 1 (or level+3 if you're a bard). As a juicy new bonus, you can now swap one spell for another after a long rest."

I feel like the real odd duck after these changes is wizard; they're now the only caster class that can't access their entire spell list after a long rest.

 

[DND_Reborn]

It is the same versatility a cleric or druid has.

True, and I thought I had made a statement to that effect but maybe it was in another thread... shrug

But neither of them have metamagic, which when used properly and when needed can be incredibly effective IME. Channel Divinity is okay and Wild Shape can be great (for Moon Druids), but otherwise... meh At this point you're also comparing arcane vs divine casters-- I am more concerned about arcane vs arcane.

If you think wizards are falling behind, just provide more scrolls and spellbooks.
As the DM you have full power to balance this out.

I didn't until this rule was put into effect.

Fortunately, I also have the full power to restore the balance by not adopting the rule.

Honestly, I used to feel the same as you, but upon further reflection it isn't a big deal.
The feature takes the pressure off the player to select the optimal choice for Spells Known. It allows them to take either more situational spells, or something they want to try out, or a suboptimal role play choice...without fear they are stuck with a dud spell for a level.

The pressure is part of the game. For the sake of the gods I am sick and tired of WotC making a version of D&D that coddles to players. 5E is already a very easy game as designed. Oh, you picked a spell you thought was great and it turned out you were wrong??? The HORROR!!! Well, it is one spell, look through the list and when you level choose a better one... But you might be wrong again.

A sorcerer's versatility is NOT supposed to be in the spells they know, neither is this supposed to be a power of Bards or Warlocks IMO. A sorcerer's versatility is in their metamagic--which now you also have metamagic versatility, which at least I can understand and is appropriate to what they are supposed to do well.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Cantrip Versatility. Druids, Clerics, and Wizards will be able to swap one Cantrip they learn with another cantrip from their class list whenever they gain a level.

Let's not forget this.
This boost Druids, Clerics, and Wizards if the DM has a long themed adventure where a damage type is resisted or immune for a long period of time an can be predicted. Like assults against vampires or treks into Hell/Abyss.

Sorcerers nerfed again.

Agreed. I see no reason why this feature should not apply to all classes with Cantrips (including subclasses).

OR

You can just award additional cantrips equal to your spellcasting ability score modifier. Which is what we do. When your modifier goes up, you get a new cantrip. So, we don't really need this either. shrug

 

[DND_Reborn]

This seems odd to me. Preparation is straight up superior to known spells, there's no subtle balancing between them.

You misunderstand. The balance in the other class features (Inspiration, Metamagic, Eldritch Innovations) that known casters get.

I feel like the real odd duck after these changes is wizard; they're now the only caster class that can't access their entire spell list after a long rest.

Agreed. And I stated as much earlier. With this change, Wizards are now the only caster who is limited by the spells they have learned, and yet they are supposed to be the most versatile casters????

 

[Helldritch]

We've strayed into the realm of hyperbole.

After a long rest, the Sorcerer can swap out a single spell for a spell of the same level.

After a long rest, the Wizard can swap out every single spell they had prepared, for whatever spells they want, of any level, as long as those spells are in their spell book.

I guess the Wizard is 'limited' to spells in his spell-book while the Sorcerer isnt. Of course, the Wizard also has the better spell list to go to than the Sorcerer. A much better spell list in fact.

The Wizard still maintains an advantage of 3-4 more spells prepared than the Sorcerer giving him greater versatility in actual play.

Past 10th level, this gap increases. A 20th level Sorcerer has 15 spells prepared. His Wizard buddy has 25 prepared.

Maybe to you that's 'obsolete' but it aint to me.

More spell prepared from a limited choice while the sorcerer will have less spell prepared from the whole list... Which one is better? The whole list!
Wizard might not know the right spell, they might lack the option. The sorcerer now have the option at a dream's notice. That is raw power.

Yes, Paladins, Clerics, druids and yaddi yadda have access to their whole list. But the arcane list has always been stronger and more versatile than the divine one. It is a really powerful power up which comes at no costs.

More over, many are saying ho but it's just one spell on long rest. And yet, it is multiple spell over multiple long rest! The sorcerer class was balanced by the fact that a sorcerer had to be careful with spell known selection. Not anymore.

It would have been way easier to allow a bit more spell known to the classes that needed them and to give the sorcerer a few more sorcery points. Cantrip known could have been related to stat bonus, so a sorcerer with a charisma of 16 would know 3 more cantrips and have 3 more sorcery points. So many possibilities could have been done that were way more balanced that this crappy rule.

As for the spell list... Yes the wizard has a better spell list (or at least more varied). But the wizard does not have full access to it. Never ever! The wizard must buy, find or trade for spells and he can't take a spell that he does not know. The sorcerer never had to buy or trade for spells and now the sorcerer can get them all just by taking naps when convenient.

This rule is simply BS. It will simply make wizards obselete.

 

[DND_Reborn]

This rule is simply BS.

Yep.

It will simply make wizards obselete.

Oh, I can still see a bit of niche for a ritual caster master... but that is about it.

Now, an interesting rule, which to me makes sense thematically, is that if a wizard uses their spell book as their spell casting focus, they can expend their spell slot to cast any spell they have learned (which is in their book).

The upside: returned versatility
The downside: your precious spellbook is literally out in the open and vulnerable.

Another option:

Spell Recall (Wizard only)
When you use a spell slot to cast a spell, you can cast any spell of that level from your spellbook if you have it in hand as your spellcasting focus. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Intelligence modifier and recover all expended uses when you finish a long rest.

Something like this added to wizards is the only way I would even consider entertaining Spell Versatility for known casters.

 

[Helldritch]

Oh, I can still see a bit of niche for a ritual caster master... but that is about it.

Not even that. Just take the Ritual Caster feat. Done. No need of wizards now. Put them all down the drain.

If the rule had been once per down time, It would have been a good rule. Not perfect, but much more balanced that what WotC came up with.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Not even that. Just take the Ritual Caster feat. Done. No need of wizards now. Put them all down the drain.

LOL hey, I was trying to throw that dog a bone...

If the rule had been once per down time, It would have been a good rule. Not perfect, but much more balanced that what WotC came up with.

(emphasis mine)

Sorry, but could you specific which rule???

 

[TwoSix]

You misunderstand. The balance in the other class features (Inspiration, Metamagic, Eldritch Innovations) that known casters get.

Fair. I would say one major difference here is that you and Helldritch seem more concerned about the impact on overall campaign balance (which could be impacted), whereas WotC and several other posters in this thread (including myself) are more focused on "adventuring day" or "per adventure" balance, which is much less likely to be impacted. Running on the assumption that the usual adventure only takes 1 or 2 long rests, of course.

I have no problems with players swapping out PCs between adventures, so the fact that the sorcerer can change himself from blasting focused to divination/enchantment focused doesn't seem like a big deal to me. Likewise, I would have no problem with the wizard scrounging up 5-10 new spells during downtime.

 

[Hohige]

I always say, the sorcerer is the most powerful class, without a doubt, but he is counter-intuitive to a new player, He needs to be very careful in the selection of spells and metamagics, he will be frustrated by the chosen fixed spells.
No longer.