D&D 5E New class options in Tasha

[Sword of Spirit]

I didn't read all the pages so I'm not sure exactly which points are being argued...but to dip my toes in a bit...

Conceptually, part of Sorcerer's traditional identity is that they have less unique spells available to them each day (and replace them rarely), but more spell slots. Compared to a wizard, they get power over flexibility.

Part of a Wizard's traditional identity is that they have more unique spells available to them each day, and can change them daily from their spellbook, but have less spell slots. They can theoretically learn every spell on their list. Compared to a sorcerer, they get flexibility over power. In addition, if you need a rare spell, a wizard is both the one most likely to have access to it (since their spellbook will have more spells than a sorcerer knows), and the one capable of gaining access to it if they don't (because if they can find it they can add it to their spellbook, while the sorcerer can only learn new spells at the right levels).

In 5e, a Sorcerer either has the same spell power as a wizard (if they use all of their sorcery points to power their spells) or less spell power if they use it for metamagic. This is something I considered a problem that disfavored the sorcerer.

Another problem for the 5e sorcerer is that their flexibility is too restricted. Their spell list is too small, and their known spells are too limited.

This rule in Tasha's attempts to fix only one of these problems--that their known spells are too limited. The problem for me is that, while it partially does that job, it ruin the concept of the wizard being the one who is most able to gain access to an unknown spell. With this change, if there is a spell on both lists that the party needs access to, instead of having the wizard go look for it (maybe involving a quest), the party just takes a long rest and the sorcerer prepares it tomorrow. In fact, unless you don't use any of the rules for creating scrolls, the sorcerer can potentially make scrolls for every spell on the sorcerer list this way, and then switch to their preferred known spells and still have their entire list available to them that way. The wizard would have to have the entire wizard spell list in their spellbook to pull off the same feat. The wizard can only do that for the spells in their spellbook, which would almost always be less than the number of spells on the sorcerer list*.

Groups that lack downtime and have adventuring days = sessions, might not see this problem at all due to the fast advancement in 5e. If you are only taking 2 or 3 long rests before leveling, they are only getting a little more spell swapping flexibility. But for groups with downtime, this conceptual issue is there.

So basically, they didn't fix two of the major sorcerer problems (that they have equal or less spell power than wizards, when they should have more, and that their class list is too limited), and the one problem they half fixed (that their known spells are too limited--though they didn't increase the number of them) broke something else. That's my issue with the change.

* However, if you have both a wizard and sorcerer in your party, you absolutely should have the sorcerer do this, and have the wizard copy every one of those scrolls into their spellbook so they have the same selection of spells available, because why not? If you did that, then it could be considered to actually balance out and fix that particular problem.

 

[Hohige]

In 5e, a Sorcerer either has the same spell power as a wizard (if they use all of their sorcery points to power their spells) or less spell power if they use it for metamagic. This is something I considered a problem that disfavored the sorcerer.

I completely agreed with everything except that

When the sorcerer use metamagic is by far far more spell power than the wizard. It isn't fair.

 

[Vael]

I've played a Sorcerer in a party with a Wizard and I'm not seeing the problem here. We each had strengths and weaknesses and we each contributed to the party and we both successfully completed the adventure.

Access to the optional features in Tasha's would've given me a few more options, but I was already picking the spells that matched my theme and fit what the party needed from me.

I guess I'm just so tired of this Wizard vs Sorcerer as if they're eternally dueling. They're both good classes that are fun to play that offer different options to a party.

 

[Minigiant]

Cantrip Versatility. Druids, Clerics, and Wizards will be able to swap one Cantrip they learn with another cantrip from their class list whenever they gain a level.

Let's not forget this.
This boost Druids, Clerics, and Wizards if the DM has a long themed adventure where a damage type is resisted or immune for a long period of time an can be predicted. Like assults against vampires or treks into Hell/Abyss.

Sorcerers nerfed again.

 

[Vael]

One other point ... while everyone seems so fearful of the deadly powergamer (who, tbh, probably wouldn't be playing a Sorcerer in the first place), I see this as a boon to the other end of the spectrum, the inexperienced player. Sorcerer can be an unforgiving class and I have seen players struggle with them. Letting them swap out spells that aren't doing what they thought, or just giving them room to experiment is a great quality of life improvement.

 

[Flamestrike]

I see this as a boon to the other end of the spectrum, the inexperienced player.

Ditto.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I completely agreed with everything except that

When the sorcerer use metamagic is by far far more spell power than the wizard. It isn't fair.

By spell power I was specifically referring to number of spell slots available to them. They have some cool stuff they can do with metamagic, and in a very limited situation (the spells that can be effectively Twinned, assuming they have that metamagic) they can squeeze out the equivalent of a few more spell slots. Of course, getting those few extra "effective spell slots" requires build dedication (there are a few spells that can be Twinned for great effect, but only a few)--it isn't something every sorcerer can do.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I am not too fond of bards swapping spells thematically. As I already said elsewhere, I'd rather tie retraining to a downtime activity. But maybe the result would be about the same.

On the other hand, I would not mind allowing the bard to swap his spontaneous casting with wizardly spellcasting depending on intelligence and a spell book.

I would not be as generous as for a wizard, only giving one spell per level and only allowing to prepare as many spells as a half caster (half level +ability modifier) which is more limited than what they can have prepared right now. Magical secrets are prepared as well. Extra magical secrets are always prepared.
So he pays extra versatility over several days with less verstility in a single day.

 

[Chaosmancer]

And in the games why this rule was suggested is because they take a long time to level (IRL and often in game time), so spending a week to learn 7 brand spanking new spells is not a big time-constraint. Also, it is the simple fact they can learn all new spells! That makes them an ultimately versatile caster.

Now, I am not just picking on Sorcerers et. al on this. Clerics, Druids, and Paladins are even worse offenders when it comes to versatility. They already have access to their entire spell list, but by at least balancing that out with selecting prepared spells--it means they can easily find themselves in a situation where they don't have the proper spell prepared.

Wait, can you explain this sentence to me?

Because, by reading this it sounds to me like you are saying that the Cleric and Druid are balanced from their access to spells by having to select which spells they have for the day.

Which is literally what these rule does, by allowing you to select a single spell to replace a spell you have. Which sounds to me, like you think Spell versatility does something different, which it does not do. It does the thing you said was balanced.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I don't know who plays this sorcerer that never metamagics and always gets to cast almost the same number of spells a wizard does -at that point I don't see a point to playing a sorcerer-. Because when you are a sorcerer, you are using metamagic over and over. There are little points left for doing anything else. Most of the time you end up sacrificing slots for even more metamagic (and subclass abilities), and end up casting even less spells per day than a normal spellcaster would. There is a lot of pressure over sorcery points, I don't think I've ever used them to make a spell slot after hitting third level.

My point was simply you stated (due to Arcane Recovery--which does require a short rest) that a Wizard was worth 1.5 Sorcerers. And whether you are using Twin Spell or swapping SP for spell slots, that claim is blatantly false.

And your use of metamagic so much is precisely why the classes were balanced before this trade. A sorcerer has limited spells, but through metamagic and do a lot with them--the wizard knows more spells, but their use is pretty standard.

FWIW, the one sorcerer in our main game rarely uses his SP for metamagic--he usually uses it for more spell slots. Obviously this will vary from player to player.