D&D 5E New class options in Tasha

[DEFCON 1]

You all realize you don't actually have to USE these new rules, right? That you can actually pick and choose which of these variant rules are in your game?

Or are all of you those DMs who are physically unable to say 'No' to your players? That if a rule appears in a book then you have no choice but to allow them to take them?

Ugh... I thought the caterwauling about the Weapon Expertise feat in 4E was bad, but this is certainly encroaching on its territory. But at least we have the hope that once the book actually gets released there will be plenty of other rules for people to get all uptight about and this whole "Sorcerers have made Wizards obsolete!" argument will fall away.

(Of course... even if it doesn't, I don't see any reason to be upset even if no one ever uses the Wizard class ever again. Because what matters are the characters-- who they are, what they are like, what is important to them-- and not the game mechanics that get tacked onto them. So if every "spellcaster" in a campaign now uses the Sorcerer template rather than the Wizard... so what? Doesn't change who the characters are.)

 

[DND_Reborn]

I think, if your players feel that the game is too easy, maybe you should just make it a bit harder

Yeah, I get this response all the time which is why I specified how the game was "designed" not played. I do run a harder, more challenging game than 5E's design would warrant. But balance is about the game design, which is for the issues I am discussing.

Save or die rolls do make the game harder. The point of them is not to roll lucky, it is to avoid them and try to find some other way to overcome that challenge. If you fail that and have to face the roll, then you have to deal with that.

Since you seem to think those save or die things and similar where about random luck... well, the same is true in 5E. There are a many things still which if a PC fails a save or goes to 0 HP from the attack, they are dead (no death saves). That is just random luck, is it not? Randomness is inherent in the game, as you know, so I fail to see the what that has to do with spell selection for known casters--which isn't random at all.

 

[Vael]

The wailing and gnashing of teeth is truly impressive. Entire campaigns? Obliterated! Wizards? Tear them from your PHBs, you won't need them anymore!! Balance? Truly a thing of the past!!!

 

[DND_Reborn]

Yes, and it turned out it wasn't enough in practice.

It has been in every table I've played at. I've played a sorcerer and had no issues with it. They don't need more versatility, that isn't their "thing" -- metamagic is.

Was this stated by the designers or official material at any point? or is it wishful thinking by the community?

Whether by design (a valid assumption considering the incredible number of spells wizards have access to) or by the communal observation, otherwise what is their "thing"???

 

[DEFCON 1]

IWhether by design (a valid assumption considering the incredible number of spells wizards have access to) or by the communal observation, otherwise what is their "thing"???

Their "thing" is that they are Wizards. With all that entails. It isn't just a single class feature that gives a class its "thing".

If just being a Wizard didn't matter... no one would have complained about the the original Psion UA being a Wizard subclass. If all being a Wizard meant was that they were the most versatile spellcaster... all the Psion players would have ecstatic to have it be a Wizard subclass. Psions are the most versatile? Woo hoo! But instead, it got soundly rejected because of everything a Wizard is. Heck, a Wizard just having a spellbook was at the top of the list for why a Psion couldn't be a Wizard subclass.

If you play a Wizard, it's because you want to play the fantasy of the Wizard. Not because you only care about a certain single game mechanic. And if you ARE a player that makes all their decisions on what to play based upon a single game mechanic... you really should be playing board games rather than RPGs, cause you are skipping out on the whole 'R' part of RPG.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Their "thing" is that they are Wizards. With all that entails. It isn't just a single class feature that gives a class its "thing".

If just being a Wizard didn't matter... no one would have complained about the the original Psion UA being a Wizard subclass. If all being a Wizard meant was that they were the most versatile spellcaster... all the Psion players would have ecstatic to have it be a Wizard subclass. Psions are the most versatile? Woo hoo! But instead, it got soundly rejected because of everything a Wizard is. Heck, a Wizard just having a spellbook was at the top of the list for why a Psion couldn't be a Wizard subclass.

If you play a Wizard, it's because you want to play the fantasy of the Wizard. Not because you only care about a certain single game mechanic. And if you ARE a player that makes all their decisions on what to play based upon a single game mechanic... you really should be playing board games rather than RPGs, cause you are skipping out on the whole 'R' part of RPG.

It just makes the wizards look like total chumps. They spend their time collecting a catalogue of spells, undertaking dangerous quests to raid the ruins of ancient libraries, meticulously researching old shattered spell tablets to reconstruct obscure magic formulas... while every other caster can just access any spell by taking a nap.

 

[MoonSong]

It just makes the wizards look like total chumps. They spend their time collecting a catalogue of spells, undertaking dangerous quests to raid the ruins of ancient libraries, meticulously researching old shattered spell tablets to reconstruct obscure maguc formulas... while every other caster can just access any spell by taking a nap.

Considering nobody else can do many of these things, I'd say it is time well spent. (Come on, wizards have the biggest spell list, the second best ritual casting in the game, the biggest amount of exclusive spells that can't be replicated, and they get to cast more spells than anybody else)

Though, honestly I've never seen the appeal in the wizard/mage/MU to begin with. Not my thing.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Their "thing" is that they are Wizards. With all that entails. It isn't just a single class feature that gives a class its "thing".

Every class has a "thing", both mechanically and thematically, the helps set them apart. I know niche protection is not a big concern for 5E, which is why part of my 90 minute discussion yesterday with one about not playing 1E (mixed with a dash of 2E) instead.

The only other thing which sort-of set them apart was ritual casting, but other classes have that feature--even if an inferior version.

Now, making it so Wizards could turn any spell they know into a ritual (and take the +10 minutes to cast it) would be something that would be very much a "thing."

 

[DND_Reborn]

they get to cast more spells than anybody else

Still making this claim, huh? Circle of Land Druids can also cast just as many spells as Wizards (at least until 18th level) since they have their own version of Arcane Recovery. So, again, Wizards can't cast spells more than anybody else.

Though, honestly I've never seen the appeal in the wizard/mage/MU to begin with. Not my thing.

That explains a lot and why this doesn't bother you at all.

 

[Undrave]

Save or die rolls do make the game harder. The point of them is not to roll lucky, it is to avoid them and try to find some other way to overcome that challenge. If you fail that and have to face the roll, then you have to deal with that.

Eh... how do you avoid something you don't know is there? Or do you want us to go back to parties inching forward in fear and stabbing everything in sight with a ten foot pole?

Save or die attacks would be interesting if D&D had a system where certain creature telegraphed their moves. If you could use a certain move to interrupt a monster's Sure Kill Death Beam from charging, for exemple, or if you could scramble for cover, I wouldn't mind those attacks were Save or Die... but D&D, as it is, doesn't include that kind of dynamic mechanics sadly.

It just makes the wizards look like total chumps. They spend their time collecting a catalogue of spells, undertaking dangerous quests to raid the ruins of ancient libraries, meticulously researching old shattered spell tablets to reconstruct obscure magic formulas... while every other caster can just access any spell by taking a nap.

A long rest isn't exactly a nap...

Retraining rules are a meta tool, they exist outside the fiction for the sake of the player, not the character. If a player finds he never see spell X because his concentration is always used for Spell Y, then he can just switch to Spell Z and in the fiction he never HAD spell X and always had spell Z. If your players are using it constantly to find the 'right spell' to skip obstacles they expect, just subvert their expectations or tell them to stop meta gaming.