NEW Immortals Handbook - Ascension thread

[Upper_Krust]

Hi dante mate!

Why would anyone want to change the templates, it's a bit late in the game for that. Not to mention they are fine the way they are.

Don't worry dude. I went over the maths last night and it only balances out when you increase the ability score bonus to +10 per divine rank (to each ability score).

This means that a Greater Power with no abilities, artifacts or portfolios would have an average ability score of about 190.

Which I can just see breaking the game down.

Incidently the way it would play out is that you reduce the ability bonus -1 per Ability Score per Divine Rank for each artifact wielded or each portfolio taken.

e.g. Demi-deity (DR 6) with 3 artifacts and a single portfolio would have their bonus reduced from +60 per score to (60-24=) +36

Buying abilities would cost -12 points for a divine ability and -72 points for a cosmic ability.

e.g. The above example with the demigod could take a cosmic ability by removing 72 points, which could mean two -36 penalties or four -18 penalties or even six -12 penalties, etc.

So a demigod with 3 artifacts, 1 portfolio and 1 cosmic ability might have a (36-12 to each score=) +24 bonus to each ability score.

Whereas one with 4 artifacts, 2 portfolios and 1 cosmic ability would only add +12 to each score:

60 per ability score = demipower (divine rank 6)
60 - 36 (4 artifacts and 2 portfolios is a penalty of 6 x divine rank) = 24
24 - 12 (Cosmic ability costs 72 total points, -12 to each score in this case) = 12

So thats how it would work in theory. But I just think that its even more prone to abuse than the current system.

 

[dante58701]

So then, this would allow for more flexibility without making it go all insane. Of course you could also just allow for a point buy system, where each status has a certain number of points to expend on ability scores, abilities, and artifacts. Thus simplifying the whole mess even further. Or is this essentially what you're doing?

Are you finally gonna standardize the Alter Reality ability? Ive seen three different versions so far.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey dante mate!

So then, this would allow for more flexibility without making it go all insane. Of course you could also just allow for a point buy system, where each status has a certain number of points to expend on ability scores, abilities, and artifacts. Thus simplifying the whole mess even further. Or is this essentially what you're doing?

I'm not going to do anything about it. I won't be implement this new system at all. But I will be using a modified version of it in a set of rules for Castles & Crusades I am contemplating called "Godlight". Which would be an IH variant for C&C. But that may not see the light of day (no pun intended) since my schedule is already full to the brim.

Are you finally gonna standardize the Alter Reality ability? Ive seen three different versions so far.

I'm liable to forget unless its in the "Fix This!" thread.

 

[paradox42]

So thats how it would work in theory. But I just think that its even more prone to abuse than the current system.

Point-buy systems usually are, to be fair. And what you were proposing with the "pay for it with ability scores" is clearly a point-buy system.

And, +10 per DR does look a bit high even to me- 190 as an average score for a Greater Deity is higher by about 100 points than any Greater Deity would have as an average even with my scale (where Greater Deities have a minimum of 400 HD). At sidereal levels- even with tens of thousands of HD (my version of Zurvan, for example, weighs in at 21,000)- it would still look absurd. Glancing at Zurvan's stats, I see he'd get a boost from scores in the 1300s to about 3000. Admittedly, he has a lot of powers he'd be spending his bonuses on- but still, pretty absurd.

But getting back to the topic of artifacts and what they should "cost" to give up, it occurred to me that the abilities that allow one to steal powers from others sort of make the divide between inherent ability and item-that-can-be-lost look a bit thinner, don't they? Cozen and Cosmic Superimposition essentially turn divine abilities into items of a sort, which can be removed. And since the only way to get the stolen powers back is by "convincing" the thief to do it willingly, or by killing the thief, it actually makes an inherent power worse to have in this case- since an item is comparatively simple to regain. How should this quandary be resolved?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey paradox42 dude!

Point-buy systems usually are, to be fair. And what you were proposing with the "pay for it with ability scores" is clearly a point-buy system.

I don't think its a problem with the 'system' itself - that is flawless. The problem is that there is an established power attributed to divinity. To mimic that power with the system creates massive 'spikes'.

In my mind I can just hear dante saying "When you have 600 strength who cares if your charisma is only 1!"

If we started out with a much lower CR boost from each divinity template then you could easily use this method as a functioning system. But I think too much water has passed under the bridge for that - it would just take so much work that I don't believe the benefits would be worthwhile.

And, +10 per DR does look a bit high even to me- 190 as an average score for a Greater Deity is higher by about 100 points than any Greater Deity would have as an average even with my scale (where Greater Deities have a minimum of 400 HD). At sidereal levels- even with tens of thousands of HD (my version of Zurvan, for example, weighs in at 21,000)- it would still look absurd. Glancing at Zurvan's stats, I see he'd get a boost from scores in the 1300s to about 3000. Admittedly, he has a lot of powers he'd be spending his bonuses on- but still, pretty absurd.

Exactly, but thats it perfectly balanced against the current divinity templates - which shows that I pretty much nailed the sweet spot for the breakdowns while maximising the power curve.

Its a bit like the monster design parameters in many ways, you don't want to allow too much growth in any one area otherwise its unbalancing.

But getting back to the topic of artifacts and what they should "cost" to give up, it occurred to me that the abilities that allow one to steal powers from others sort of make the divide between inherent ability and item-that-can-be-lost look a bit thinner, don't they? Cozen and Cosmic Superimposition essentially turn divine abilities into items of a sort, which can be removed. And since the only way to get the stolen powers back is by "convincing" the thief to do it willingly, or by killing the thief, it actually makes an inherent power worse to have in this case- since an item is comparatively simple to regain. How should this quandary be resolved?

Depends on what direction you want to go in.

For instance you could make the effects of Cozen and Cosmic Superimposition temporary.

 

[mercucio]

UK,

What I currently do for non-humanoid deities is take the + value of each artifact and use that buy Divine/Cosmic Abilities inherent to the deity. Now while provides the equivalence I desire between humanoid & non-humanoid deities vis a vis powers accessible it has one flaw: its far easier to negate/sunder/destroy artifacts than it is to do the same to inherent powers (only Cozen allows this). The solution I am contemplating, and maybe of equal use here is to double the cost of selecting Divine/Cosmic Abilities from the artifact + pool to better represent the advantages inherent to intrinsic Divine/Cosmic abilities vs. those granted by artifacts.

 

[WarDragon]

Yeah, Mercucio is where I got the idea for that method, mentioned a bit earlier on the thread. I think double is a bit too much, though...

 

[mercucio]

In a game that doesn't use extra wealth levels, perhaps doubling might seem excessive. In a game that does use them (the default assumption of IH) it is, not, or so I believe.

 

[paradox42]

Perhaps a game where the artifacts are considered essentially equal to inherent powers would treat artifact "plus" as equivalent to a weapon bonus, whereas games where artifacts are considered more powerful (and inherent should therefore be weaker) treat the "plus" as an armor bonus. The armor/weapon dichotomy provides an existing balancing factor within the system that could be exploited to create the desired effect, in other words.

 

[dante58701]

Gold Body (Ex)
Your body turns to gold.
Prerequisites: Construct Traits, Iron Body.
Benefit: Your body becomes gold. Your weight by 19.3. Your strength increases by +40 (Which will gain you at least two virtual size categories; meaning your natural attacks deal base damage as if two size categories larger). You can add 5/- to your damage reduction. You also add +5 to your natural armor bonus. Your unarmed attacks automatically treat an opponents damage reduction as if it was 5 points less. Your dexterity is reduced by 4 (although this penalty cannot reduce your dexterity score below 10).
Special: Both the damage reduction and the natural armor bonus stack with existing damage reduction and natural armor. This ability overlaps with Iron Body, it does not stack with it.
Appearance: Your manifestation seems cast from a gold metal.

The advantage over adamantine being the lower dexterity penalty. The disadvantage, it's softer and easier to beat up.


Gold Dust (Breath Weapon) (Su)
You can breathe a cone of sparkling gold dust that harms the wealthy.
Prerequisites: Construct Traits, Gold Body
Benefit: You can breath a cone of sparkling gold dust once every 1d4 rounds. Anyone caught within its effect suffers 1d20 points of damage for each level of effective PC wealth they possess. A Reflex save can be made for half damage. The save DC is Charisma-based.
Special: For brevity the GM can use the PCs character level, or half an NPCs character level (for standard NPC wealth) to calculate the damage.

This one...Im not too sure about the wording.



Embarrassment of Riches (Su)
You can gain the benefits from wearing two magic items in each equipment slot, except rings, of which you can wear four.
Prerequisites: Construct Traits, Gold Body, Iron Body
Benefit: You can gain the benefits from wearing two magic items in each equipment slot, except rings, of which you can wear four.

??? this one Im also unsure of.



Metal and Mineral Detection (Su)
You can detect metal and minerals.
Prerequisite: -
Benefit: You can detect metal and minerals at will as if using a charge from a rod of metal and mineral detection. This ability has a range of 275 feet and is always active.



Gold Rot (Su)
You are a carrier of a disease known as gold rot.
Prerequisites: -
Benefit: You are a carrier of a disease known as gold rot, though it affects all wealth (including coins and gems) not just gold. Anyone struck by one of your attacks must make a Fortitude save or contract gold rot. Those affected suffer no damage but instead the wealth they own at the time of contraction begins to atrophy at a rate of one level of PC wealth per day. Random objects of wealth (up to the value indicated) simply crumble into dust. This can include art objects, coinage, gems, magic items, properties. Anything with an intrinsic monetary value can be affected. The save DC is Charisma-based.
Special: The only way to stop gold rot is by destroying the particular deity which infected you, although a miracle or wish spell can delay its effects for 1 day per level of the caster, while a limited wish can delay its effects for 1 day.

And this one Im also unsure of.



In case anyone's wondering, Im looking to make a Sadim from scratch. I have a human who was turned into one by a curse so Ive got to get these divine abilities in order.