NEW Immortals Handbook - Ascension thread

[dante58701]

I would were it not for the fact that any spellcaster could find the materials and build a weapon that is drastically more powerful without being limited to the 4 artifact rule or the rule that artifacts are part of the template.

I work it this way.

Example...Demi-Deity.

4 Artifacts are considered part of the template. Using the modular nature I turn those typically useless artifacts into 24 divine ability slots (6/artifact).


Thus the demi-deity template has 30 divine ability slots...appropriate.

The base character, without the divine template is not limited to a paltry 4 artifacts. (wielding 6 weapons requires you to be able to wield 6 weapons...not 4...my biggest problem with the artifacts being tied to divinity).

This means that the base character before the template...has up to as many artifacts as they have body slots.

While most characters will not have a lot...there are few (notably wizards) that will have a lot of them. Particularly since by epic level a spellcasters spellbook should typically be considered an artifact as well.

Take this base character...with it's normal compliment of artifacts...and apply the modulated demi-deity template.

It's much more realistic. I mean, let's face it...is a character going to suddenly lose the ability to make use of multitudinous artifacts just because they become epic level...that's just lame.

Sure the challenge rating and level adjustments need to be modified accordingly, but who cares.

What about those who use thrown missile weapons. They would get left in the dust with this artifact system.

Let's say I have a rogue who uses literally hundreds of small knives...each is a +6 keen, piercing (similar to vorpal, except, it pierces the heart or most vital area) knife. He uses them in conjunction with Storm of Throws and other feats of equal devastation.

Artifacts need to not come as part of the template...but with level adjustments and challenge ratings of their own. Essentially treating the artifacts in a manner akin to templates.

Under the 4 artifact rule any character that used multiple weapons before they become a deity, will get completely screwed. So...many would rather opt to not be gods...since becoming a god would actually make them considerably weaker.

I see no point in punishing characters for their ingenuity.

 

[EarthSeraphEdna]

Hmmm, I've got four hypothetical situations regarding dealing direct damage to objects:

Scenario 1A.) A Medium-sized 500 HD elder one (don't ask) with a 500d20 Perfect Cosmic Beam is flying 3 miles above the peak of Mount Everest, within the range of his beam. The great mountain has about 5120 hp, and the elder one thinks he can take it down with his average damage of 5250 with his beam. He fires his 500d20 Perfect Cosmic Beam straight down at Mount Everest as a Medium-sized ray attack from his palm.

Scenario 1B.) As scenario 1A, except that the elder one's 500d20 Perfect Cosmic Beam is instead a 50-mile-diameter, 15-mile-long cylindrical line. This is enough to fully engulf Mount Everest in the beam, but still deals only 500d20 damage.

Scenario 2A.) A Medium-sized 16,000 HD elder one (once again, don't ask) with a 16,000d20 Perfect Cosmic Beam is floating around in space 120 miles away from the planet Earth, just within the range of his beam. The earth has approximately 163,840 hp, and the elder one thinks he can decimate it with his average damage of 168,000 with his beam. He fires his 16,000d20 Perfect Cosmic Beam straight at the earth as a Medium-sized ray attack from his palm.

Scenario 2B.) As scenario 2A, except that the elder one's 16,000d20 Perfect Cosmic Beam is instead an 8000-mile-diameter, 9000-mile-long cylindrical line. This is enough to fully engulf the earth in the beam, but it still deals only 16,000d20 damage.

What happens in each scenario, assuming each respective beam hits and deals its average damage? I'm trying to figure out how your system deals with area of effect damage in relation to an equivalent amount of direct damage to an object.

 

[dante58701]

Good question...

I figure a narrow beam would just act like a hole puncher.

 

[EarthSeraphEdna]

Good question...

I figure a narrow beam would just act like a hole puncher.

Wouldn't a narrow beam with sufficient energy be capable of "dismantling" the object, ala the Death Star? It takes 2.4e32 Joules to dismantle the earth... we know that a x64 Energy = x2 Damage... hmmm...

 

[Upper_Krust]

I would were it not for the fact that any spellcaster could find the materials and build a weapon that is drastically more powerful without being limited to the 4 artifact rule or the rule that artifacts are part of the template.

I work it this way.

Example...Demi-Deity.

4 Artifacts are considered part of the template. Using the modular nature I turn those typically useless artifacts into 24 divine ability slots (6/artifact).

Which, in hindsight, makes the characters even more ridiculously powerful.

Thus the demi-deity template has 30 divine ability slots...appropriate.

The base character, without the divine template is not limited to a paltry 4 artifacts. (wielding 6 weapons requires you to be able to wield 6 weapons...not 4...my biggest problem with the artifacts being tied to divinity).

This means that the base character before the template...has up to as many artifacts as they have body slots.

Which returns us to the Christmas Tree problem.

While most characters will not have a lot...there are few (notably wizards) that will have a lot of them. Particularly since by epic level a spellcasters spellbook should typically be considered an artifact as well.

Take this base character...with it's normal compliment of artifacts...and apply the modulated demi-deity template.

It's much more realistic. I mean, let's face it...is a character going to suddenly lose the ability to make use of multitudinous artifacts just because they become epic level...that's just lame.

Hopefully something that will be sorted with 4E.

Sure the challenge rating and level adjustments need to be modified accordingly, but who cares.

What about those who use thrown missile weapons. They would get left in the dust with this artifact system.

Let's say I have a rogue who uses literally hundreds of small knives...each is a +6 keen, piercing (similar to vorpal, except, it pierces the heart or most vital area) knife. He uses them in conjunction with Storm of Throws and other feats of equal devastation.

Instead he could just use +5 piercing knives. Then he doesn't break the artifact rule.

Artifacts need to not come as part of the template...but with level adjustments and challenge ratings of their own. Essentially treating the artifacts in a manner akin to templates.

Under the 4 artifact rule any character that used multiple weapons before they become a deity, will get completely screwed. So...many would rather opt to not be gods...since becoming a god would actually make them considerably weaker.

I see no point in punishing characters for their ingenuity.

I don't see 'having more magic items' as especially ingenius.

Also the artifact rule is something I advocate for epic characters as well, so simply being mortal doesn't circumvent it.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi adslahnit dude!

Hmmm, I've got four hypothetical situations regarding dealing direct damage to objects:

Scenario 1A.) A Medium-sized 500 HD elder one (don't ask) with a 500d20 Perfect Cosmic Beam is flying 3 miles above the peak of Mount Everest, within the range of his beam. The great mountain has about 5120 hp, and the elder one thinks he can take it down with his average damage of 5250 with his beam. He fires his 500d20 Perfect Cosmic Beam straight down at Mount Everest as a Medium-sized ray attack from his palm.

Scenario 1B.) As scenario 1A, except that the elder one's 500d20 Perfect Cosmic Beam is instead a 50-mile-diameter, 15-mile-long cylindrical line. This is enough to fully engulf Mount Everest in the beam, but still deals only 500d20 damage.

Scenario 2A.) A Medium-sized 16,000 HD elder one (once again, don't ask) with a 16,000d20 Perfect Cosmic Beam is floating around in space 120 miles away from the planet Earth, just within the range of his beam. The earth has approximately 163,840 hp, and the elder one thinks he can decimate it with his average damage of 168,000 with his beam. He fires his 16,000d20 Perfect Cosmic Beam straight at the earth as a Medium-sized ray attack from his palm.

Scenario 2B.) As scenario 2A, except that the elder one's 16,000d20 Perfect Cosmic Beam is instead an 8000-mile-diameter, 9000-mile-long cylindrical line. This is enough to fully engulf the earth in the beam, but it still deals only 16,000d20 damage.

What happens in each scenario, assuming each respective beam hits and deals its average damage? I'm trying to figure out how your system deals with area of effect damage in relation to an equivalent amount of direct damage to an object.

I would anticipate that a Ray attack will burrow through inanimate objects, while a blast attack would explode an area of dimensions commensurate to the damage.

Unfortunately 3E isn't great when working these things out.

Consider one like armor piercing and the other like high explosive.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Wouldn't a narrow beam with sufficient energy be capable of "dismantling" the object, ala the Death Star? It takes 2.4e32 Joules to dismantle the earth... we know that a x64 Energy = x2 Damage... hmmm...

The problem with the Death Star is that, although it looks like a laser (and is actually called the 'superlaser') its actually a plasma weapon that sends a pulse of energy to hit the planet.

So its more like throwing a fireball than casting a Ray attack.

 

[mercucio]

Hiya mate!



Pssthpok has already answered this one (thanks dude).

But just to explain my reasoning a tad...the power within the templates (ECL) doesn't marry perfectly with the number of QP such beings have. I was more interested in balancing the QP/WP with regards worshippers than with CR/ECL.

So you have a situation whereby QP/WP for each status increases so much that it vastly outstrips the power inherent in the previous status.

i.e. God power (in terms of encounter level, CR or whatever) increases at (approx.) the square root of the QP gain.

So a Lesser Deity may have 100 times more QP than a Quasi-deity, but its only (on average) ten times as powerful.

A Greater Deity may have 10,000 times more QP than a quasi-deity but its only 100 times more powerful.

Now the problem arises when you use QP to create other immortals. If the Greater Deity was able to straight swop its QP it could easily create 5000 quasi-deities by expending just half its QP. That means it can create a force 50 times more powerful than itself.

Now you can argue that at that spread of power even 5000 quasi-deities won't be able to kill it because the differences will be too great (akin to 5000 1st-level characters vs. a 30th-level character). But I still don't like to give that much away.

Forgive me, but your explanation is a bunch of horse-pockey. Why? Simple: why would a deity ever bother using the methods listed in the Gained section of the Disciple/Prophet templates when it's incredibly cheaper to enter into a Compact with a mortal to bypass the limits imposed in the Gained section of said templates?

 

[dante58701]

YEah...+5 Piercing wont cut it when facing creatures with Epic damage reduction. Why bother forcing such insane restrictions anyways. It just compounds an already existing problem.

I'm glad I don't have to listen to anyone regarding this particular 4 artifact rule, it's one I'd never follow.

Why not just have a rule that dictates...as any artifacts as you can carry, provided they don't exceed your limit of total artifact value. Rather than a hardcore 4...which makes no sense. Especially since you made Three-Weapon Fighting a reality.

"Excuse me...I'm dead...my other two swords are refusing to let me wield them." - Jon

A number of my gamers are already complaining about the 4 Artifact rule. I definitely have to agree with them. It's stupid, especially when most people are just going to say...to hell with it, like we have.

You've basically proposed a senseless limitation without offering an out or even voting on it. Much like your (outsiders are not individual races...they are all divinities) rule...it has already grated sharply against 3.5 system rules.

One point I'd like to note...

Dicefreaks has also altered epic rules, but only so very slightly. Instead of dismantling 3.5 and making most of it obsolete...they have gone out of their way to incorporate as much of it into their rules as possible.

Not everyone wants to be a one trick pony.

 

[dante58701]

Forgive me, but your explanation is a bunch of horse-pockey. Why? Simple: why would a deity ever bother using the methods listed in the Gained section of the Disciple/Prophet templates when it's incredibly cheaper to enter into a Compact with a mortal to bypass the limits imposed in the Gained section of said templates?

Another point in case would be Mercucio's point. He's absolutely right...it is cheaper. Not to mention a lot easier. Sure not everyone will go the route of a pact...but it's a valid point.

For some reason you keep imposing Lateral caps rather than Vertical caps. This is rather counterintuitive.

This is just one of a few inherent flaws in certain limiting factors...factors which should remain optional...like size limitations.

Let's be realistic...an Elder One, should, without any problems...be able to keep it's full power regardless of size. Remember the Q...they were whatever size they wanted to be and could retain their full power regardless.

What if a PC becomes an Elder One...would a human suddenly have a growth spurt? Hell no...most players would never want to physically deform their characters in this manner. It's a very personal thing to them.

No excuse in the world will placate them.

While most of the rules in the Immortal's Handbook are superb...there are a few glaring flaws.

Like Cosmic abilities with the same name that don't match. That one really peeves my gamers. It royally ticks off the girls especially (they tend to have more of a sense of order than the guys).

As most have probably gathered Im part of a rather large gaming group...numbering about 16 or so odd people, give or take a few on school nights.