NEW Immortals Handbook - Ascension thread

[paradox42]

Well, by taking those powers, it has limited itself to what it 'can do'. The sample first one you mention is tough. Really tough. Juggernaut tough. But that encompasses so many divine slots that it basically becomes a major facet of their being. But if the First One can do it, The Demiurge can too.

This hypothetical First One I mentioned hasn't used up slots from its normal allotment- I did say it was because the being didn't get an artifact. That means it basically takes 1 Transcendental and 2 Cosmic abilities as its artifact instead. It doesn't really lose much by doing this, in comparison to a First One with four artifacts.

Also, the Demiurge can not, in fact, match this- because by being a Demiurge it already has Transcendental Toughness and the d1000 hit dice that come with it. The Demiurge is stuck at 2000 hit points per die, while that First One can have 8000. That was my point in the previous post, nothing more. Is it a winning strategy? Depends on the other powers involved- but becoming tougher than a Demiurge can be (at least at Stage I) has got to be good for something.

 

[Pssthpok]

I just don't see HP being the be-all-end-all defining line of power in a game of such a level. There are so many other options, as stated previously, that HP is just another number... even if it's really high.

 

[mercucio]

AC and DC are based on divine rank now, while Attack and Saves go with ability score bonuses.

I highly suggest making it Divine Rank Save DC and Saving Throws, and ability modifier to AC and Attack Rolls. There already is an enormous disparity between save DCs (especially spels & SLA DCs) and saving throw. Allowing you to add you attribute modifier to your saves only deepens that gulf. As for AC, attack bonuses outstrip ACs precisely because they are static, and allowing you to apply your attribute modifier helps fix some of that problem.

 

[Xzoltar]

Avatars & Aspects

I was reading my updated Immortal Handbook and the section about Avatars and Aspects. I see no limit on the number of avatar or aspect an Immortal can have (I have place myself a limit equal to his divine rank for avatar and twice is divine rank for aspects). However, what I feel a bit much is using all theses avatars and aspects at once.

I think most Immortal need to send their Avatar around the planes to fullfill is goal, same goes for aspects, but what for Player Character who go to battle sumonning all is avatar (let's say a Lesser God with 50 HD and 10 Avatar of 25 HD and rank 8). Will all thoses avatars he can cast a lot of spells, or use them to boost is Epic Spells via extra spellcaster or lot of others things.

My question now is, is that possible to include a small text about the use of a avatar and a aspect for a Immortal. why the create them, how they use them and why they just dont always fight using all of them at once (maybe because they are lot weaker than himself and if all are destroy at once, its a big lost of Quintessence for that Immortal) ?

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

There were no Avatar/Aspect limits, but since they cost Quintessence (especially avatars), no deity would want more than 1 avatar or 100 aspects.

 

[Kalitharus]

Gods and Cosmic Entities never have an avatar or an aspect in the same location. If they are in a battle, they will most likely call in servitors and minions to fight in their place. Thats what minions are for. Gods and Cosmic entities have many more important things to do, rather than fight mortals, at the drop of a hat. Mortals don't dictate to Gods... it's the other way around.

Avatars and Aspects are too valuable to have two in the same place anyways. Having two in the same place would defeat the purpose of them, to begin with. :\

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Pssthpok matey!

You might want to double check; my copy still has "ability modifier" for the bonus.

Thats totally weird, I definately changed them, I must not have saved it.

Can't wait.

Well you'll have to...this is me remember.

Understandable; your content is great, but I can see how trying to standardize things can be like trying to cover variously-sized walls with the same amount of paint.

Its a bloody nightmare!

Too much trouble at this stage, I think, especially if Find-Replace isn't a speedy option.

It was more food for thought than something I was actively pursuing.

Very cool; hopefully we should only see another update, pre-art? 2.3 would be the 19th update.

Indeed. Although I fully expect I'll be fixing errata while working on the art.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey paradox mate!

Just to comment on the hit point multiplier by template issue, I think it's an excellent start, and a good base to work with. If we step back and take a look at what the beings actually get with this, Elder Ones get effectively 400 hit points per die, Old Ones get 600 per die, First Ones get 800, and Demiurges get 2000. Time Lords, though, get 1000000- that's a bit of a precipituous jump!

To resolve this, I think the different Stages of Demiurge should grant different multipliers. This would model the fact that as the Demiurge takes in more and more Sidereals, it becomes more and more like the Time Lord it once was. My suggestion is for Stage I to have double, as it now does, Stage II gets 10x the amount, and Stage III gets 100x. that's a jump from 2000 to 10000 hit points per die going from I to II, and 10000 to 100000 going from Stage II to Stage III.

One snag with this, though, is that it's possible for beings of lower divine status to get d1000s for hit dice if they're built without artifacts- a First One, for example, would get 48 Divine Abilities' worth for each "lost" artifact, and in general that would result in at least one Transcendental ability per item if we use the principle of least-total-number-of-abilities. If that First One then takes Transcendental Toughness as its ability, then suddenly the entity is gaining 8000 hit points per hit die instead of 800- and not incidentally, four times the number of hit points per die as the Demiurge which is supposedly a more powerful being.

On the whole its almost impossible to regulate because there is no set limit to the amount of strength a being can have.

Logically it should be x2 Elder, x4 Old, x16 First, x32 Stage I, x64 Stage II, x128 Stage III, x256 Time Lord.

This assumes a layer is the squared root of a plane, which is itself the square root of a dimension which is the square root of a universe.

That suggests:

Elder One: 254/die = Average 35,560 hp

Old One: 548/die = Average 109,600 hp

First One: 2480/die = Average 694,400 hp

Stage I Demiurge: 5536/die using d100's= Average 2,214,400 hp
or 34,336/die using d1000's = Average 13,734,400 hp

Stage II Demiurge: 13,248/die using d100's = Average 7,418,880 hp
or 70,848/die using d1000's = Average 39,674,880 hp

Stage III Demiurge: 30,848/die = Average 24,678,400 hp
or 146,048/die using d1000's = Average 116,830,000 hp

Time Lord: 80,640/die using d100's = Average 80,559,360 hp
or 311,040/die using d1000's = Average 310,072,000 hp*

*I'll almost certainly be using d1000's for time lords and above.

The big gap with the multipliers seems to be when you move from d100's to d1000 hit die as you noted yourself.

 

[Upper_Krust]

I just don't see HP being the be-all-end-all defining line of power in a game of such a level. There are so many other options, as stated previously, that HP is just another number... even if it's really high.

The problem is that even an average Time Lord is going to be dealing about 1 million hit points with a single attack. So it doesn't make sense for them to have only half a million hit points.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey mercucio dude!

I highly suggest making it Divine Rank Save DC and Saving Throws, and ability modifier to AC and Attack Rolls. There already is an enormous disparity between save DCs (especially spels & SLA DCs) and saving throw. Allowing you to add you attribute modifier to your saves only deepens that gulf.

I think with saving throws you always have to err on the side of caution though. If you set up a situation whereby at every level someone DCs have a 50% chance of success/failure then it only takes one character who has min/maxed their DCs to totally upset the applecart.

As for AC, attack bonuses outstrip ACs precisely because they are static, and allowing you to apply your attribute modifier helps fix some of that problem.

But the dynamics of D&D are such that you hit proportionally more often but deal proportionally less damage the higher in level you ascend.

Virtual Size Categories start to peg this back once you hit about Strength 200 or so and then slowly but surely start to reverse it. Which is how we arrived at the current problem being discussed above.