Mercurius
Legend
Well, relatively speaking within the context of Star Wars. Leia was no, say, Meryl Streep in Bridges of Madison County. But its Star Wars!
(I feel like a Leia Apologist)
New Rise of Skywalker trailer
- Thread starter Morrus
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Well, relatively speaking within the context of Star Wars. Leia was no, say, Meryl Streep in Bridges of Madison County. But its Star Wars!
(I feel like a Leia Apologist)
Zardnaar
Legend
Luke sucked at personal combat in ANH, and wasn't much better in ESB. He got smacked down Tuskan Raiders, a Wampa and Vader. Gave into his anger on Dagobah.
Good pilot, ok with blasters. Wasn't really a Jedi until RoTJ being competent with his lightsaber.
Rey going darkside even briefly would make her a bit more interesting. Reasonably sure it's a force vision or possession or something like that.
The plotline is basically a rehash of Dark Empire from 1991. They had the basic ingredients but messed up here and there. Killing Han in front of Leia would have made Kylo a more compelling villain IMHO.
Make Rey a Jedi Knight from the get go, ties her to Kylo in some way. It's hard to care about any of the new characters as they butchered them in VIII.
Just small tweaks like that, logic, character development, establishing a villain etc.
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I like Rey. But I'm also a writer so it's handy to think about character growth and Mary Sueishness of characters.
Here's a test:
I don't know Star Wars well enough to answer for Leia, Luke, Han or Rey (But Anakin scores points for being a slave). Mary Sueing isn't just about being competent as all these characters are good at something on day one.
The usual goal for main characters (as a writer) is that they have a change and growth arc. They make mistakes. Does Leia? I'm not so sure. She's largely composed and competent in ANH. Falls in love with Han in ESB. Kicks butt in ROJ. I sense that she might not be a main character. Which means she kinda got hosed on story (assuming every character's meta-goal is camera time emoting and evolving their character).
(here's a link on character arc from an expert writer advice person so we're all on the same page)
The Character Arc in Six Specific Stages
Luke starts as whiny, always in a hurry to get to out there, never focused on where - he - is. At the end, he's calm, he's collected, and he's ready to confront and turn Vader. A very definitive character growth arc where Luke is not the same person. Almost like Lucas had read a book on the subject...
Does Rey have any flaws? Poe does. Finn does. Their faults are very obvious conflict and growth points (or in Poe's case his flaw is a strength)
She does have those flashbacks and questions about where she came from, being abandoned.
Aside from improved Force skill, does Rey change in any way? She's strong, confident. Does she ever do the wrong thing? Whether she's a full Mary Sue or not, there's signs that she's not getting the full Arc treatment.
Do we ever tackle that abandonment issue? Does it ever come up or hold Rey back?
this might even be a side effect of being a major female character and the writers trying to make her a role model or avoid negative connotations about her flaws if she had them. I still like her, but it'd be an unfortunate loss for her. But I wouldn't panic over it. I still like her character.
We all like Ellen Ripley, but does she really have a change arc? The whole story is "nobody listened to the woman, so they all died except for her and the cat." I doubt Mace Windu had much of a change arc, but he was a bad mutha-jedi. Oh wait, the story wasn't about Mace. Funny that. Is it possible that the story's not about Rey? That she's really a catalyst for Finn, Poe, Kylo and Luke?
From the standard of the old serials (of which Star Wars is an homage), character change/growth didn't really exist as most of the focus was on external issues (saving the princess, earth, dog, etc). So as George says, it's all popcorn.
Here's a test:
I don't know Star Wars well enough to answer for Leia, Luke, Han or Rey (But Anakin scores points for being a slave). Mary Sueing isn't just about being competent as all these characters are good at something on day one.
The usual goal for main characters (as a writer) is that they have a change and growth arc. They make mistakes. Does Leia? I'm not so sure. She's largely composed and competent in ANH. Falls in love with Han in ESB. Kicks butt in ROJ. I sense that she might not be a main character. Which means she kinda got hosed on story (assuming every character's meta-goal is camera time emoting and evolving their character).
(here's a link on character arc from an expert writer advice person so we're all on the same page)
The Character Arc in Six Specific Stages
Luke starts as whiny, always in a hurry to get to out there, never focused on where - he - is. At the end, he's calm, he's collected, and he's ready to confront and turn Vader. A very definitive character growth arc where Luke is not the same person. Almost like Lucas had read a book on the subject...
Does Rey have any flaws? Poe does. Finn does. Their faults are very obvious conflict and growth points (or in Poe's case his flaw is a strength)
She does have those flashbacks and questions about where she came from, being abandoned.
Aside from improved Force skill, does Rey change in any way? She's strong, confident. Does she ever do the wrong thing? Whether she's a full Mary Sue or not, there's signs that she's not getting the full Arc treatment.
Do we ever tackle that abandonment issue? Does it ever come up or hold Rey back?
this might even be a side effect of being a major female character and the writers trying to make her a role model or avoid negative connotations about her flaws if she had them. I still like her, but it'd be an unfortunate loss for her. But I wouldn't panic over it. I still like her character.
We all like Ellen Ripley, but does she really have a change arc? The whole story is "nobody listened to the woman, so they all died except for her and the cat." I doubt Mace Windu had much of a change arc, but he was a bad mutha-jedi. Oh wait, the story wasn't about Mace. Funny that. Is it possible that the story's not about Rey? That she's really a catalyst for Finn, Poe, Kylo and Luke?
From the standard of the old serials (of which Star Wars is an homage), character change/growth didn't really exist as most of the focus was on external issues (saving the princess, earth, dog, etc). So as George says, it's all popcorn.
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To say, "losing a fight to Vader indicates you suck at personal combat," is kind of like saying, "you lost to Usain Bolt in a race, so you are a turtle."
that's why I supplied a test. if somebody really thinks she is, they can do the math on all the chars and prove it.
I don't feel like she got a full character arc, but maybe it's too subtle for me. Luke was pretty blatant and obvious. Plus, her set of films aren't done yet.
I'm not overly worried about it. But I also don't really give a rats arse about star wars. I'll see it. It'll have cool stuff. And I'll go home. Somebody on EN World will say something smart about it. Somebody else will complain about it. If there's a takeaway I can use in my own work, great.
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lowkey13
Guest
*Deleted by user*
I did no math, I challenged those who think Rey is to do the test on all the characters. Your accusation is baseless.
Crying out "It's just movies!" is dismissive and ignorant. It takes a lot of work to design compelling stories and plot. I'm sorry you're not interested in that. We're here to discuss movies. If your response to discussion is "It's just movies!" you're not discussing, in fact, you're trying to thwart that by trivializing the entire concept of being unworthy of deeper consideration.
Heck, if you'd read my post, maybe you could answer the questions I posed. I countered several of the anti-Reyist comparisons. I don't have the movies memorized, but I find it harder to recall Rey's flaws or character arc compared to the others. You'd notice I spent a lot more time talking about arc than Rey being a Mary Sue or not. I'd like to think somebody here has figured Rey out and could point her arc out. Thereby revealing she got as much arc as the others. Which in turn diminishes the Mary Sue argument.
I've enjoyed Rey's movies as is, but I do want her to get a fair share of character development. Can you help spot those elements?
Maybe I'm late to the party, but I saw comments implying Rey was faulty and saw an approach to analyze whether that was true or not based on storytelling craft which I'm familiar with.
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lowkey13
Guest
*Deleted by user*
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