D&D (2024) No Appendix N Equivalent?

[Ruin Explorer]

D&D is more like GURPs though. It’s all things to all people. It might be sci fi horror, it might be Carry on Cleo, and anything in between.

See I strongly disagree, and all the art and description in the 5E 2024 groups also disagrees. D&D is not all things to all people. Historically, it has - very falsely - sometimes attempted to sell itself that way. But in reality it's a fairly broad church but far from an infinite one. D&D has no rules that support it being played as "sci-fi horror", for example, and attempting to play it as such is going to cause very significant clash between the rules and what is actually mechanically happening in the game.

This is particularly true with D&D 2024, which no longer provides the DM with much in the way of optional rules nor, if I understand correctly, a whole lot of guidance about adding such. D&D often does advance some slightly haphazard suggestions about "how to run" it with a flavour of some genre - see Ravenloft 5E for examples - but they're not really taking it into another genre beyond simply how you're running it.

I think it's pretty clear that, inspiration-wise or comparator-wise, D&D 5E, especially 2024, does have stuff it could point to as "where it's coming from". I think the real reason it doesn't want to in 2024 is simply that if it listed fantasy novels, TV, or movies, the vast majority of them would, realistically, be PG-13 or older, rating-wise (if books were rated, and I am thankful they are generally not), as even most YA novels are (and realistically virtually everything most of us read from when we were about 11 onwards was!), and even they somehow threaded the needle there and picked out a bunch of PG stuff, all they'd do would be make a bunch of grogs mad and cause some "D&D is for babies" kind of memes to spread.

Always remember, WotC are making products that would not be deemed unsuitable for children.

See, you get it. We don't need to make up stuff about using D&D to run Carry On Cleo or Alien, neither of which WotC would now find "suitable" to mention, even were they both very direct inspirations for D&D (which would be wild). The main reason they don't have this appendix is because they'd have to put stuff in it that might, in theory, expose them to the tiniest possible amount of risk in terms of someone getting mad about it.

This is why I think D&D might be a tiny bit short-term doomed honestly (long-term no way), because WotC are so utterly focused on making it completely child-oriented, and are unable to perceive that this is a great way to make unattractive to older teenagers and young adults (older adults are usually increasingly fine with that as they move away from being embarrassed about ever having been children). I think it's a few years before we'll see any problem, but I think either WotC is going to do some sort of hilarious edgy "NOT YOUR DADDIES D&D" rebrand in like 2034 (or more realistically, slightly earlier than that), or see a lot of people leave D&D either for other RPGs or to just not play RPGs as they get older. Maybe they're counting in a nostalgia wave down the line?

 

[Scribe]

See I strongly disagree, and all the art and description in the 5E 2024 groups also disagrees. D&D is not all things to all people. Historically, it has - very falsely - sometimes attempted to sell itself that way. But in reality it's a fairly broad church but far from an infinite one. D&D has no rules that support it being played as "sci-fi horror", for example, and attempting to play it as such is going to cause very significant clash between the rules and what is actually mechanically happening in the game.

This is particularly true with D&D 2024, which no longer provides the DM with much in the way of optional rules nor, if I understand correctly, a whole lot of guidance about adding such. D&D often does advance some slightly haphazard suggestions about "how to run" it with a flavour of some genre - see Ravenloft 5E for examples - but they're not really taking it into another genre beyond simply how you're running it.

I think it's pretty clear that, inspiration-wise or comparator-wise, D&D 5E, especially 2024, does have stuff it could point to as "where it's coming from". I think the real reason it doesn't want to in 2024 is simply that if it listed fantasy novels, TV, or movies, the vast majority of them would, realistically, be PG-13 or older, rating-wise (if books were rated, and I am thankful they are generally not), as even most YA novels are (and realistically virtually everything most of us read from when we were about 11 onwards was!), and even they somehow threaded the needle there and picked out a bunch of PG stuff, all they'd do would be make a bunch of grogs mad and cause some "D&D is for babies" kind of memes to spread.

See, you get it. We don't need to make up stuff about using D&D to run Carry On Cleo or Alien, neither of which WotC would now find "suitable" to mention, even were they both very direct inspirations for D&D (which would be wild). The main reason they don't have this appendix is because they'd have to put stuff in it that might, in theory, expose them to the tiniest possible amount of risk in terms of someone getting mad about it.

This is why I think D&D might be a tiny bit short-term doomed honestly (long-term no way), because WotC are so utterly focused on making it completely child-oriented, and are unable to perceive that this is a great way to make unattractive to older teenagers and young adults (older adults are usually increasingly fine with that as they move away from being embarrassed about ever having been children). I think it's a few years before we'll see any problem, but I think either WotC is going to do some sort of hilarious edgy "NOT YOUR DADDIES D&D" rebrand in like 2034 (or more realistically, slightly earlier than that), or see a lot of people leave D&D either for other RPGs or to just not play RPGs as they get older. Maybe they're counting in a nostalgia wave down the line?

 

[Gradine]

This is why I think D&D might be a tiny bit short-term doomed honestly (long-term no way), because WotC are so utterly focused on making it completely child-oriented, and are unable to perceive that this is a great way to make unattractive to older teenagers and young adults (older adults are usually increasingly fine with that as they move away from being embarrassed about ever having been children). I think it's a few years before we'll see any problem, but I think either WotC is going to do some sort of hilarious edgy "NOT YOUR DADDIES D&D" rebrand in like 2034 (or more realistically, slightly earlier than that), or see a lot of people leave D&D either for other RPGs or to just not play RPGs as they get older. Maybe they're counting in a nostalgia wave down the line?

This is a gross misreading of the typical teenager and young adult in 2024. We're far removed from the edginess of Gen X 90's teens. From my fairly extensive experience with today's young adults, WotC is leaning heavily into exactly their style of aesthetic. Welcome to the world of "cozy"

 

[Hussar]

2002 called. It would like its arguments back.

Sigh.

 

[jasper]

At this point a modern Appendix N would be 384 pages

and people would still argue that it is solely based on Tolkein.

 

[MichaelSomething]

I think we we can all agree that Enworld should be on every recommended reading list! This forum is where the best of the TTRPG Workd hang out.

 

[Baron Opal II]

I am still trying to understand the benefit of an Appendix N.

The benefit to me was I was exposed to names of new authors. I encountered different literary styles and methods of tale-telling. New ways to express and describe situations, people, entities, and magic. While I may have come across these authors eventually, it was nice to have 2/3rds a column of authors that I might have interest in and inspiration from.

I certainly acknowledge that it would be a bit more challenging to develop a concise list of inspirational reading 50 years on.

 

[bedir than]

and people would still argue that it is solely based on Tolkein.

The length would be proof!

 

[Yaarel]

The benefit to me was I was exposed to names of new authors. I encountered different literary styles and methods of tale-telling. New ways to express and describe situations, people, entities, and magic. While I may have come across these authors eventually, it was nice to have 2/3rds a column of authors that I might have interest in and inspiration from.

I certainly acknowledge that it would be a bit more challenging to develop a concise list of inspirational reading 50 years on.

I appreciate articulating how it helped personally.

I agree it would be more challenging today. When looked at the sample list offered by @Voadam, it occurred to me, do any of those books have the central hero be gay or trans? Some of them have woman as the hero of the story. It is hard to put together a short list that applies to everyone who plays D&D. And to throw "officialdom" onto only one short list, sets a tone, everyone that identify with that list gets to feel empowered and "canonize" it no less, but it leaves everyone else somewhat disempowered. Anyway, it is genuinely complex to put together a list in the first place, and even then do the benefits outweigh the costs?

 

[Zaukrie]

Deleted