D&D (2024) No Appendix N Equivalent?

I think I did. All I remember is "I got good reading recommendations" in different variations. But I won't read them again. Good talk.
In the 80s I incorporated some Micheal Moorcock into my D&D. It’s possible I might not have come across it without the original Appendix N, there being no internet or Amazon back then.

But it’s not like I would have been unable to play D&D without it!
 

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The art direction in D&D hasn't supported "gritty realism" since 1st edition, but people still play that style of game. The art exists to sell books, not tell you what your home game should look like (otherwise 1st edition would look like black and white pencil drawings). People ignore the art all the time. My Eberron is big on 1920s fashion, despite it not being in any of the official art. The current art style simply reflects current fashions in fantasy art - compare it to The Veilguard for example.
Whilst this is fun, it's largely beside the point, and it's funny that you say that re: Eberron, given Eberron has a massive 1920s vibe, which was conveyed in large part through the art! Maybe not to 1920s fashion specifically (I'm not an expert on fashion from that era, I must confess), but certainly vibe.

As for current fashions in fantasy art, sure, but art direction exists, it's not a random assemblage of fantasy clip art from the last two years or something. Veilguard actually helps illustrate this, as its art is vastly more realistic in style (despite insane-person criticisms about "Pixar", which are actually down to numpties not understanding what subsurface scattering is) than 5E, far less stylized, and tending far more towards the dark.
And yet I use it all the time, and it appears in official D&D products like Rime of the Frostmaiden. It's a style. It doesn't need specific rules.
What definition of "sci-fi horror" are we using here? I can't think of one that includes RotF. You seem very convinced though - you want to clarify what you're referencing in spoiler blocks? I would note that it's very possible to nod to The Thing or Alien or the like without in any way actually "doing horror".

Re: rules it needs a ruleset that can actually support the vibe beyond the superficial, and D&D 5E just doesn't have that.

We can put a superficial veneer on sure, but it's a millimetre deep and the moment it gets tested it's obviously just aesthetics.
So WotC themselves clearly use source material which has never been mentioned, and cannot be mentioned, in any Appendix N. So what would be the point?
I already answered this upthread.
If you want D&D that is influenced by both sci fi horror and Carry On humour, look no further than Baldur’s Gate 3!
Glad I'm not the only one who caught how specifically Carry On-esque some of the stuff in a certain location in Act 3 was! They were even doing Carry On-style voices!
Doctor Who managed to work round that issue in 1970s (although not without attracting criticism) by not being too explicit, and having ropy FX. We had Genesis of the Daleks (Nazis), The Ark in Space (Alien before Ridley Scott) and The Seeds of Doom (The Thing before John Carpenter), amongst others.
For sure, but that's writers and directors essentially attempting to evade a BBC mandate, back in an era when evading mandates was a hell of a lot easier.

Whereas with WotC, I don't think they have adventure writers who are trying to "fly under the radar" or "work around" things to make them more horrifying. RotF is from when WotC began the whole child-friendly-ization of D&D, so presumably escaped the same kind of deal. And it's a corporate company with tighter (if incompetent) control over its messaging. They might miss obvious racism, but I don't think they're going to miss an obvious innuendo or horror element. We shall see of course.
But WotC does have adult oriented stuff as well, like Baldur's Gate 3, and there is adult focused D&D-adjacent media, like the Critical Role cartoon. I wouldn't say current D&D is aimed squarely at children, it just avoids anything that is likely to upset parents in the core products.
Neither of those are WotC, and BG3 was specifically notable for how different its tone is to all of 5E's official products. And WotC managed to sever that relationship, so that's over. Critical Role is obviously not WotC and again the discontinuity of the vibe between that and WotC's own output is increasingly being noted, even by younger people. Re: aimed squarely at children, I concur - it's on the way there, but it's not there yet - and I don't object to including children, to be clear - quite the contrary, but I think WotC's drive to make D&D super-safe is inevitably going to mean D&D starts looking a bit "lame" to teenagers through young adults as a group. It happened with 2E (sure 2E was edgier than 5E is, but also the '90s were wildly edgier in youth culture terms, especially other RPGs), and it feels like they're going more extreme this time.

But this actually brings us back to art and appendix N. A lot of the vibe of an RPG is contained in the art, particularly for newer and younger players, so it's important that you pick art that gives the right vibe for your RPG - and 5E 2024 I think has done that, but it's a vibe that's somewhat divergent from where a lot of fantasy is going today, which is to say, more fantasy art is rather more towards the gritty than it was 5-10 years ago. Recommendations re: media (which don't necessarily have to be true inspirations, just vibe carriers) for 5E are this made more difficult in another way, beyond parent-offending, in that 2024's main vibe is somewhat at odds with much of fantasy (the deep fear of parent-offending is clearly the main issue though).
 

In the 80s I incorporated some Micheal Moorcock into my D&D. It’s possible I might not have come across it without the original Appendix N, there being no internet or Amazon back then.
The internet and Amazon haven't made it easier to find influential or powerful fantasy, they've made it vastly harder. In general fantasy has, for better and worse, become more balkanized and territorial, with BookTok almost patrolling certain areas of it. Really well-written and imaginative fantasy, and pretty much all older fantasy aside from LotR tends to be obscured in favour of inch-deep mile-wide stuff like Sanderson's Cosmere (sorry Sanderson bros, the man can churn it out, and can write a fight scene, but he can't give it any depth or humanity, and the Cosmere represents the very worst of "World-building not characters" lore-baiting) or YA stuff which is often fun but deeply unoriginal and will be entirely forgotten in ten years.
But it’s not like I would have been unable to play D&D without it!
It's not about being able to play, it's about understanding context. And that's something that, perversely, this era of "content" seems to be weakening, rather than strengthening. Moorcock, despite being vastly influential, is particularly forgotten/overlooked by basically everyone under 40.
 

This is a gross misreading of the typical teenager and young adult in 2024. We're far removed from the edginess of Gen X 90's teens. From my fairly extensive experience with today's young adults, WotC is leaning heavily into exactly their style of aesthetic. Welcome to the world of "cozy"
I don't think I am misreading it at all. Cozy as an aesthetic has been around for well over a decade and is fading in popularity with anyone under about 30, frankly.
 

What definition of "sci-fi horror" are we using here? I can't think of one that includes RotF. You seem very convinced though - you want to clarify what you're referencing in spoiler blocks? I would note that it's very possible to nod to The Thing or Alien or the like without in any way actually "doing horror".

Re: rules it needs a ruleset that can actually support the vibe beyond the superficial, and D&D 5E just doesn't have that.

We can put a superficial veneer on sure, but it's a millimetre deep and the moment it gets tested it's obviously just aesthetics.
Well, Chris Perkins talked about being inspired by The Thing in interviews before RotFM launched, so yeah, I'm pretty sure! But you don't need to be doing a genre to borrow (plagiarise/steel) from it. RotFM isn't particularly horrific, any more than 1970s Doctor Who was horrific (if your age has more than 1 digit) whilst ripping off Frankenstein (hello Morbius, Mary Shelley wants her plot back). There are horror elements you can play up or tone down as you wish. Horror is all just aesthetics.

As for specific details, the secrets that PCs are supposed to have at the start are intended to produce paranoia amongst the players, like the characters in the isolated Antarctic base.
One of them is being infected by a Slaad tadpole. There is a room in the adventure that features a large dining table. The text suggests that this would be a good place for the tadpole to burst out of the PCs chest if it hasn't been dealt with. There is art for the chest-bursting tadpole. On art, the crashed flying city frozen in the glacier looks very like the crashed flying saucer from Thing from Another World. The art for the Coldlight Walker looks more like the movie poster from The Thing more than anything that was actually in the movie did. And lots of other odds and bods, like a sidequest involving a crashed nautaloid. There is also a monster called Tekeli-li, in a reference to At the Mountains of Madness.
 

Neither of those are WotC
Which is a ploy. WotC can keep it's family friendly image, whist licencing out* it's Books of Vile Darkness, so they can appeal to adults without being blamed for corrupting the children.

*whist Critical Role isn't licenced, WotC maintain a very chummy relationship with them.
 


But you don't need to be doing a genre to borrow (plagiarise/steel) from it.
Sure, but we were talking about "doing" a genre, not just borrowing from it. Sounds like RotFM is just borrowing aesthetics, without actually making any attempt to do SF horror, which is precisely what I was talking about when I was saying it was surface-deep.
Which is a ploy. WotC can keep it's family friendly image, whist licencing out* it's Books of Vile Darkness, so they can appeal to adults without being blamed for corrupting the children.
I don't think it is a ploy, though.

I think the fact that this stuff exists is a major part of why the OGL 2.0's grasping and clammy attempts to make it so you basically had to get your work "approved" by WotC existed. Do you remember that? I think WotC were forced to retreat from a position they'd prefer to occupy because they overstepped, rather than it all being a "cunning plan" to secretly allow edgy D&D materials to exist.

To be clear by WotC here I don't necessarily mean Crawford/Perkins, but rather the people above them. Though I think Perkins is fairly on-board for this.
I'd read Narnia, I'd read Lord of the Rings, I'd seen Doctor Who, I read lots of TSR adventures, I read White Dwarf. I didn't need anyone to tell me to "go read these books" to understand what D&D was, and do what I wanted with it.
What about all the kids who haven't? Which is the vast majority of people who came to D&D in that and later eras. Context is incredibly valuable and taking a giant steaming dump on it, as you seem to be keen to do, is pretty odd imho.
 

Sure, but we were talking about "doing" a genre, not just borrowing from it.
I wasn't. I'll borrow from any genre, but I don't usually set out to do a particular genre. Genres are artificial limits. It's clear that Chris Perkins and other D&D writers don't usually set out to "do a genre" either. Look at the mix in Radiant Citadel. Golden Vault is an obvious exception.

But as I said, Horror is all aesthetics. Take the same content and dress it up differently and it can be comedy, or a drama, or an action adventure.
I don't think it is a ploy, though.
I do. Look at the "Partnered Content" on DDB. An awful lot of that is more adult focused than the official WotC stuff. It's all about plausible deniability.
What about all the kids who haven't?
Then they have seen TV, played video games, seen movies. They would have had to be living in an isolated cabin in the woods in order to not know what fantasy was.
 

Sure, but we were talking about "doing" a genre, not just borrowing from it. Sounds like RotFM is just borrowing aesthetics, without actually making any attempt to do SF horror, which is precisely what I was talking about when I was saying it was surface-deep.

I think D&D can do fantasy horror fine and the Survivor classes introduced in Van Richten’s Guide do a good job of that. But I think further out from that, it’s the 5e system that can do these other genres versus actual D&D, which is still fantasy based. There’s a reason Alien RPG or Mothership is a thing. You won’t find a cleric class or a wizard class, let alone subclasses. They have to be sci-fi classes and at that point it’s a 5e compatible game but not D&D itself, IMO.
 

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