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On Evil

I'd always envisioned Evil as a form of selfishness, a casual or even intentional disregard for others in pursuit of one's own goals.

I think that selfishness fits well under the definition I've provided above, but it would require a bit of twisting to get selfishness to fit what I see as the totality of evil. For example, the above definition includes a lot of examples of the destruction of self-worth, and casual disregard for the health and well-being of the self. It does not claim that gluttony is merely bad because in wasting goods it deprives others of their use. It would claim that even in abundance gluttony would remain evil because of the destruction of self. So it's not actually the selfishness, or at least not only the selfishness, that would be seen as evil. Likewise, the above definition condemns a suicide bomber, not because of the suicide bombers selfishness alone or the suicide bombers destruction of others alone, but also as much for the act of self-destruction.

In other words, while it agrees that selfishness is evil, it believes it is evil because it is destructive. If ever selfishness could not be destructive, it wouldn't be evil. In that sense, it also does not occur to me to limit evil to one aspect or behavior, such as selfishness.

But as far as the value of the self goes, I think the issue is more complicated. I see CG as individual centered, self actualizing, intrapersonal goodness that is fundamentally rooted in the self as the source of goodness. Consider for example the statement, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." That statement is meaningless without self-worth and introspection, and it makes as a standard each individual's judgment (and is consequently criticized by some from what we may call the 'lawful' perspective as a very flawed rule).

Consider what happened to Nazi Germany when it was believed that Hitler was dead: Each of his inner circle attempted to seize power and declare themselves to be the new leader.

I'd rather not consider real world examples too deeply, least of all Nazi's, but as a point of fact this isn't true. However, what is true about the chaos surrounding the death of Hitler, is that it is deep evidence that whatever the overall stated purpose and organization of the Third Reich as whole, they way Hitler ran the inner circle was actually deeply Chaotic and suggests that the whole project was to a great extent a front for Hitler's personal ego and ambition. However, again, I'd rather we invent examples as much as possible or speak theoretically. Too much history or religion here will eventually bring strife.

The Nazi's were evil by just about any definition, but weren't intent on destruction or nihilism. They wanted national supremacy for their country, as a way of promoting themselves as being naturally superior to all others.

Again, I would suggest that as a whole, the dominate alignment of National Socialism was lawful evil. As someone has already noted, they had an ethos. The description I gave is very specific to Neutral Evil, and the particular spin given by LE and CE is only briefly and indirectly touched on. However, I will say again, that if you look at the inner circle, you'll find examples of individuals that appear to be nihilistic and fit the above description rather nicely, and you'll find that each of the inner leaders was taking his own section of the movement in different directions with different spins on them.

But I don't think there is a lot of profit in trying to classify at a distance real world movements and groups, particularly not at least until the definition is understood and accepted. If you go about classifying groups using a different set of facts and particularly a slightly different version of the definition, then we'll just end up passionately truly arguing pointless things.
 

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By the listed definitions above just about every D&D character I've ever seen (and that's quite a lot!) is evil to the core. As are most real-world people I've ever met, including myself.

Which only tells me the definitions given are way too broad and all-inclusive. For my part, they're also far too closely aligned with the definitions given by a few major real-world religions for me to want to have anything to do with them; thus I will not be subscribing to your newsletter. :)

Lan-"show me a 1e character who wasn't avaricious and I'll show you a character who never reached 2nd level"-efan
 

By the listed definitions above just about every D&D character I've ever seen (and that's quite a lot!) is evil to the core. As are most real-world people I've ever met, including myself.

Self-awareness is a good thing. But the mere fact that you are aware of your capacity for evil, suggests you are not nearly as damaged as you could be. ;)

Leaving aside your assertion about real world people, I'd say that I concur most PC's act in an evil fashion. Some, like a couple of IRL Satanists I met, reveled in that and some more or less default to a sort of unconcerned violence and greed because most of the time that is what the game primarily awards and their players are making choices as if this was a game. But it's not for nothing that there is a stereotype of 'murder hobos', or that Knights of the Dinner Table is funny precisely because it correctly sends up and highlights the dysfunctionality we've all seen from time to time.

The big exception I've seen is players under age 12, who make very different sorts of choices. Indeed, I find it refreshing to play with kids and even teenagers, because they play with so much more maturity on average. I have met the real munchkins, and they are us. Speaking of, why do you think Munchkin presents the average PC in a way that can only be described as deranged?

Which only tells me the definitions given are way too broad and all-inclusive.

I agree that I've given a definition that condemns pretty much everyone as being not free from evil. But, forgetting the real world again, is that definition really surprisingly broad or surprising all-inclusive given that in game the human race is presented as overall 'neutral', or to put another way, that the natural inclinations of humanity are toward both evil and good and that they are mixed in their motivations. Or for that matter, with the possible exception of a few very rare individuals whose purity and righteousness is such that it gives them superpowers, does anything about the game suggest that even 'good' humans are completely free from evil desires and temptations? I mean, if the definition was much less inclusive, what would be so special really about a Paladin? Aren't they special because humans largely free from evils taint extremely rare? Isn't that the trope?

We often here complaints from players, particularly regarding the alignment system, that D&D makes things too "black and white". That it doesn't leave room for moral gray areas. Well, here we have you complaining that my definition leaves the situation too gray! If the definition was really less inclusive, and really more narrow, what it would mean is that there really would be teams of white and black. But if we have a definition that is inclusive, it means that everyone is complicated. It doesn't I think mean everyone is necessarily more evil than good to suggest everyone is capable of evil, plagued by evil, and occasionally acts out of some evil desire, but it does mean that no one gets to claim moral simplicity.

For my part, they're also far too closely aligned with the definitions given by a few major real-world religions for me to want to have anything to do with them; thus I will not be subscribing to your newsletter. :)

Ok sure. That's almost inevitable. But I'm less interested in the question of whether or not they remind you of any real world philosophical musing on the nature of evil, as to whether such a definition is functional and coherent for an imagined world. And of equal interest to me is the question of whether it makes for powerful and complex fantasy stories to consider evil in this fashion, as opposed to some different less inclusive and less condemning definition. Since you are bringing real world religious critiques into this, I'll confess that the above definition is I think in all regards congruent with the definition Tolkien used to animate his worlds and that is, as you know, not at all a coincidence. A less inclusive definition could be used, but then you'd create a world where the One Ring offered no temptation, no moral hazard, and a person could wield it to overthrow the Dark Lord without the slightest fear of undesirable consequences. Yet I put to you that such a story, very much congruent I'm sure with many D&D tales, actually makes for a world of starker black and white than Tolkien's world so frequently criticized for being one of too easy moral absolutes. It's not Tolkien's world view that suggests that there aren't a lot of moral grays, and aren't a lot of victories marred by tragedy, but the world were the only baddies are ones that chew live puppies and anything you could do or can do to stop them is good and not evil.

But alright, supposing you probably disagree with all of that, what definition of evil would you provide that isn't a contradiction of not only itself but what you've written here?

Lan-"show me a 1e character who wasn't avaricious and I'll show you a character who never reached 2nd level"-efan

I'm unaware of the moral system in which greed isn't a moral hazard if not outright evil. In particular, I'm unaware of the D&D universe which defined evil in such a way that greed wasn't called out as being among the greatest evils. In stark contrast to what I've written here, the canonical D&D definition of evil as outlined by late era TSR and WotC is that evil is defined as selfishness. In which case, by the canonical rules avariciousness is very much evil. So while I'm aware that you oppose this definition, and while you've made really clear why, it doesn't seem to me that you are seriously offering up any alternative.

Besides which, you should play with 12 year olds more often. There is more than one way to succeed. In fact, in my most recent session my typically avaricious player/PCs lost a henchmen in a fight with a pack of velociraptors. And it was only after losing this resource (commonly referred to in a fit of honesty as the "the meat shield"), that they began to question why they'd left their henchmen with only his starting equipment, when many of them had magical weapons and other items that they carried but never actually used and that actually, if they stopped hoarding these useless (to them items), and gave them away it might actually improve their ability to succeed in the game.

The motives weren't pure, but it was a bit of a moral breakthrough. It very much reminded me of Belkar Bitterleaf realizing his own officious nature and callous disregard of others was violating his own deepest moral principle of self-interest. Twelve year olds would have given the weapons away out of kindness and a sense of fairness before they realized it was actually self-interested to do so.
 
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Celebrim, I suspect his issue is less "why have you made everything Grey-and-Grey," and more "why have you made everything Black-and-Black, or at least Black-and-Grey?" It's hard to tell, but that's the sense I got from Lanefan's post. As I understand it, Lanefan's preferences lie pretty heavily on the classic, "OSR-style" side of things, thus a "absolutely all self interested motivations are DEEPEST EVIL" conception would make even a Paladin nominally "evil." Nobody, in that context, goes diving into the incredibly dangerous world of dungeons (and dragons, for that matter) unless they're desperate, crazy, or motivated by money or power to at least some degree. Since it is not really tenable to assume that ALL Paladins are desperate or insane, some must be motivated at least partly by rational self-interest, which would make them "evil."
 
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Celebrim, I suspect his issue is less "why have you made everything Grey-and-Grey," and more "why have you made everything Black-and-Black, or at least Black-and-Grey?"

I don't believe I have. Just as I have raised a very high (seemingly impossibly high) standard for what it means to be totally evil, I've also raised a very high (seemingly impossibly high) standard for what it means to be totally good.

The objection to the first point was anticipated and discussed in detail during the essay.

A valid objection to the essay might be, "You've made evil so extreme that no real persons are actually truly evil? I mean who is really motivated purely by a desire for nihilistic destruction? It is a lot easier for me to believe that the underlying motivation for evil is self-interest, and you seem to be suggesting that true evil even works against its own self-interest. I can't believe in that." I think I have dealt with that anticipated objection to some extent, and would be willing to deal with it even more.

But the converse of that complaint is the one you describe here, briefly something like: "If evil really is what you say, then no one is purely good either, for who doesn't engage in some form of destructive behavior, either from self-interest or disregard of self?"

And my answer is, "Well, among mortals isn't that the expected result? Don't we expect everyone no matter how bad they are to have a little capacity for good? Don't we expect everyone no matter how good they are to have a little capacity for evil? Doesn't that look a lot like the world we actually live in? I mean, don't all of us no matter how good we consider ourselves, if we reflect a moment, can't we recall times where we behaved in ways we wished we wouldn't have, and done things we think were wrong?"

So shouldn't it be the case that even in a fantasy world, that this sense prevails among ordinary people, and at best we are talking about people who predominately choose to do good, or who predominately choose to do evil? The word I like to use when discussing this is 'depravity'. We like to think of people as being evil who are only those people who do things which we think of as being depraved. And we can observe that some people appear to engage in things that are more depraved than others, and so those people are more evil. But if we reflect a moment we can imagine things in the other direction as well, with incidents of less and less depraved acts which are still wrong even though perhaps less depraved. For example, while none of us might have killed someone, and most of us might not have struck someone in anger, we can probably think of times when we shouted things or said things in anger that injured and hurt others. That action might be less depraved than having killed them, but it doesn't make the action good merely by being 'less depraved'.

"absolutely all self interested motivations are DEEPEST EVIL" conception

I want you to pay particular attention to two big misunderstandings of what I've outlined here. First, I have at no time anywhere in this thread conceded that self-interested motivations are evil. I very pointedly have not defined evil as selfish. I am explicitly rejecting the definition of evil that started cropping up in the canon of TSR and particularly WotC where evil was defined as selfishness or self-centeredness. I don't deny that selfishness can be and almost always is evil, but I don't define evil as selfishness much less some broader term like self-interested or self-centeredness.

Secondly, the 'DEEPEST' in that quote is your addition, and it doesn't follow from anything I've said and once against directly contradicts it. I explicitly defined deepest evil as annihilation of all, including the self. Being self-interested even to the point of being willfully destructive (much less passively negligent, much less practicing an ethic of reciprocity which has an element of self-interest) is not 'deepest evil' under this conception. Indeed, as I continue pointing out, having self-interests may not even be evil under what I just outlined. Indeed, because the reverse - 'goodness' - values your self, you have an interest in self-care and self-concern that is laudable under goodness provided that it doesn't become overweening or disproportionate. After all, if good is the opposite of my outline, not only does Good value your Self as a thing of worth in and of itself, but how also could you be of any good to anyone else if you were damaged and destroyed as evil desired?

Nobody, in that context, goes diving into the incredibly dangerous world of dungeons (and dragons, for that matter) unless they're desperate, crazy, or motivated by money or power to at least some degree.

I fully 100% disagree. That is on its face an evil statement. The real world equivalent is that no one risks themselves unless they have an ulterior motive. I deny that forcefully. Of course evil would like to condemn all actions as being motivated by fear, insanity, greed or lust in at least some degree. Of course evil would like everyone to believe that. It's a perfect self-rationalization for then being motivated by fear, insanity, greed, or lust yourself. The fact that evil would like everyone to believe it is so, or the fact that it is common experience that it is so, doesn't make it so.

Since it is not really tenable to assume that ALL Paladins are desperate or insane, some must be motivated at least partly by rational self-interest, which would make them "evil."

Again, I don't know where you are getting that, since it is a direct contradiction of what I've repeatedly said. Where are you getting this idea that I have said that self-interest is evil?
 
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I'm unaware of the moral system in which greed isn't a moral hazard if not outright evil. In particular, I'm unaware of the D&D universe which defined evil in such a way that greed wasn't called out as being among the greatest evils. In stark contrast to what I've written here, the canonical D&D definition of evil as outlined by late era TSR and WotC is that evil is defined as selfishness. In which case, by the canonical rules avariciousness is very much evil. So while I'm aware that you oppose this definition, and while you've made really clear why, it doesn't seem to me that you are seriously offering up any alternative.
I'm not. I'm merely trying to point out that your definition flies in the face of RAW 1e D&D, where wealth and experience (i.e. character level advancement) were joined at the hip by the xp-for-gp rule; which (assuming, not unreasonably, that players want their characters to bump now and then) either makes avarice non-evil or marks as evil every played character in the game...which is ridiculous.

In 1e D&D greed, for lack of a better word, is good.

I also soundly disagree with the sex-is-evil tone your definitions take.

Lan-"I have no patience for full-frontal prudity"-efan
 

I tend to base my interpretations of good and evil in D&D on a rough version of the "Object, Intention, Circumstance" method from the Catholic Catechism.

It basically goes as follows:

1.- The object is your goal, what you want to achieve. "I want to hurt that man", "I want to help that man". Will is a key aspect here (that's it, whether or not you are aware of the consequences of your actions); knowing that the act is evil is what makes you accept that evil

2.- The intention is your reason to do so, why you want to achieve that goal. "I want to hurt that man because he's carrying something I want", "I want to help that man so others can see how good a person I am".

3.- The circumstances are both the magnitude of the act and the context under which you are acting. "I just wanted to hurt that man to take what he had, not kill him", "I want to help that man so others can see how good a person I am. I'm scared that otherwise they'll kick me out of town".


In rough terms, an act would be evil:

1.- If the object is evil ("I want to hurt that man") and you know it is (in contrast with "I didn't know there was anyone inside when I ordered the house to be demolished", which wouldn't be evil -though it could be if the person knew he was supposed to check-).

2.- If the intention is evil, regardless of the object ("I want to help that man so others can see how nice I am"). As St. Thomas Aquinas said "The end does not justify the means". Why you want to do something vices what you do. On the other hand, a good intention with an evil object also means the action is evil ("To save that man I have to kill that other innocent man").

3.- The circumstances don't determine whether an act is evil or not, but can increase or diminish how grave it is. Oftentimes, a truly evil act is that in which the circumstances were completely against promoting the act yet the person chose to do it anyway.

Now, this still requires determining what exactly is an evil object and intent, but in most circumstances one can apply intuition. The harder cases are those when one has to confront the Manichean nature of evil in D&D: "If a creature is fundamentally evil -as being a physical manifestation of evil-, is hurting it evil?". In those cases, I try to judge based on whether or not the PCs could be aware of such a thing: If they have no reliable way to knowing a creature is actual, pure evil (in contrast to just being evil-aligned), then their actions would be evil (if diminished by the circumstances of, say, being scared shitless of it), as the intention would vice the act. If they did, I'd be willing to consider acting against actual evil a good act.

It's not a perfect system, as it still relies on me to determine when something is fundamentally bad in a game where good an evil can physically manifest, but it covers almost all cases I have to rule, and the players like the system as well, as it gives them somewhat clear rules by which to consider their actions.
 

<see post before this one>
It's not a perfect system...
Agreed, but I see it as a much better jumping-off point for discussion than post #1 in this thread.

And oftentimes, in D&D "good" can be best defined as the lesser of various different evils.

Lan-"sometimes the means justify the end"-efan
 

I'm not. I'm merely trying to point out that your definition flies in the face of RAW 1e D&D, where wealth and experience (i.e. character level advancement) were joined at the hip by the xp-for-gp rule; which (assuming, not unreasonably, that players want their characters to bump now and then) either makes avarice non-evil or marks as evil every played character in the game...which is ridiculous.

In 1e D&D greed, for lack of a better word, is good.

Viewed from another angle, Evil is about succumbing to temptation. If the lure of power causes the characters to greedily chase gold to gain more xp and advance more rapidly, they have fallen to the lure of the Dark Side's offers of easily gained power. Good isn't about taking the easy path.

I can recall many 1e characters who were focused on role playing of their characters, secure that level gains would come over time. I recall a lot more who had "gold drains" built into their backgrounds (once you have the gold, where does it go? 1e generally solved this with training costs, but many groups got rid of training - 3e+ commoditized magic to provide more expensive gear to buy with loot).
 

Viewed from another angle, Evil is about succumbing to temptation. If the lure of power causes the characters to greedily chase gold to gain more xp and advance more rapidly, they have fallen to the lure of the Dark Side's offers of easily gained power.
Which loops right back around to my point that most if not all PCs in 1e would be defined (here, anyway) as evil.

I can recall many 1e characters who were focused on role playing of their characters, secure that level gains would come over time.
So can I, but in games where the xp-for-gp idea had been abandoned. (secondary side effect: dropping this idea slows level advancement to a crawl, allowing more focus on character and story rather than numbers). That said, they still need money for other things not least of which is the occasional revival from death... :)
I recall a lot more who had "gold drains" built into their backgrounds (once you have the gold, where does it go? 1e generally solved this with training costs, but many groups got rid of training - 3e+ commoditized magic to provide more expensive gear to buy with loot).
We used training (and still do); and 1e also had the idea that at "name level" (usually 9th) you could - and were sort-of expected to - build a castle/temple/stronghold/guild appropriate to class and staff it. This often cost a big pile of money to accomplish, and then proceeded to drain lesser amounts of money as time went on; rare indeed was the character who could make even the tiniest profit doing this.

Lan-"10th level now, and the nearest I've had to a stronghold is a pub I built and then left behind on another world"-efan
 

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