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On Evil

Interesting. I always saw it as something of a primer on basic capitalism.

Well, first of all 'capitalism' is a communist term of art... so yeah, anytime you read a primer on 'capitalism', you would be basically reading Marxism. Actual 'capitalists' always refer to an 'open market' or a 'free market', and refer to themselves as Liberals Economists. But, that's a whole other story.

The game is actually Georgist in its philosophical roots, which is another economic system (like 'Marxism' for example) you may not have heard of. In his day, Henry George was as famous as Karl Marx, and ironically there are a whole lot more nations with economic systems influenced by George around today (though no pure 'Georgists', he was a huge influence on libertarianism in the US and Liberal Socialism in Europe) than by Marx.

It's not really important the details, but Georgism unlike Marxism was/is a Liberal economic system intended to set up a governing system that would tend to lead toward conditions similar to those envisioned by the original Liberal Economists like Adam Smith and John Locke. Georgism wasn't a criticism of Liberal Economics as it was an attempt at reform of government - chiefly tax policy - so that the market would stop being distorted by a lot of things government was doing that was in Henry George's mind contributing to income inequality. Georges was actually a big fan of Locke and Smith, and Marx HATED him.

If you've read Smith, the greatest evil that a person can do in what you are calling 'capitalism' is rent seeking. 'Rent Seeking' is like the cardinal sin of 'capitalism' (if capitalism wasn't a communist theory and if capitalism actually had sins). Rent Seeking is deliberate market distortion. Rent Seekers attempt to corner a local market in a commodity for the purpose of raising the prices on it, taking advantage of limitations of space time to remove the assumption of 'many sellers' from the market. The only thing that is about as bad as Rent Seeking, is Monopolies, which are sort of the end goal of rent seekers. 'Capitalists' or whatever you want to call them hate Rent Seekers about as much as communists hate the means of production being in private hands. Smith, if you'll recall, was trying to explain why some nations became wealthier than others, and one of his theories on how a nation could lose its way was that it wealthier members would be consumed with rent seeking.

This actually shows up in a lot of literature of the period. For example, it's one of the chief political subtexts of Dicken's 'The Christmas Carol'. Scrooge uses leverage to put out of business the kind hearted generous 'capitalist' Mr. Fezzywig, who gave Scrooge his first job, and then proceeds to become a pure rent seeker, cornering markets in commodities like grain and then raising the prices because he is the only seller. The audience is supposed to immediately recognize this, sort of like a modern villain will be made to spout racist opinions so the audience will immediately know him for a villain - "Rent seeker! Boo!!!".

Because there is no actual productive activity in Monopoly, no way to beat anyone else by out producing them or selling a better product or controlling your costs of production or anything else, there isn't any thing going on that is 'capitalism' even by the original Marxist definition.

Inasmuch as the game is competitively played to win, and the win condition is to end up with the most (or all of the) money, and being a greedy SOB is the best way to achieve this, then yes I think within itself it not only teaches that greed is good, it drives the lesson home with a sledgehammer. Whether said lesson translates over into real life is, of course, up to each player on his-her own.

Well, I guess its maker would be very unhappy. She appears to have considered it completely obvious that you weren't supposed to sympathize with the 'greedy SOB's'. Of course, part of the problem may be that Parker Brothers reskinned the maker's original game which was entitled 'The Landlord's Game' when they made Monopoly. However, I've never really studied the original art of the board or the box and the accompanying discussion.

However, if you think the moral of the game is 'Greed is Good' and you feel its actually encouraging one to unconsciously learn that lesson, I guess I'm going to have to concede that the game Monopoly is evil.
 
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Anyway, show me a character who refuses to kill ANYTHING, and I'll show you a Good character.

I'm inclined to agree most of the time, though I'm not sure I agree that this is a requirement of a Good character and I'm not sure all pure pacifists are actually Good. This would come down to, "Is Pacifism a good ideology?" Obviously Pacifism is generally inspired by Good under the definition of Evil I've offered. If Evil is destroying things, then clearly Good is at least refraining from destroying things (which you'll probably note leaves a bit of room for Neutral pacifists). The question usually comes down to, "Do you do more good by refraining from destroying destroyers, or by destroying them to protect the innocent." This is a huge point of contention, and I can see it seriously dividing Good thinking types even nominally of the same alignment. Of course, if they are really Good, it wouldn't divide them to the extent of creating strife, hate or violence - but it would be something they'd really suffer over, and actively chastise and try to persuade their good allies over.

But in D&D, there are several much bigger exceptions possible than in the real world because there are just more different obvious categories of being. Pacifism usually is a promise not to kill people, and not merely to not to kill generally. It doesn't normally extend to everything alive. Sure, many Pacifists are also Vegetarians to avoid killing animals because they see that as an evil as well, but relatively few of those oppose say Antibiotics as if doing violence to a disease bacteria was evil. It's possible to be both a Pacifist and to kill.

In D&D, several of the foes are explicitly 'Not Alive'. Two obvious ones are non-sentient constructs and undead. You could smash a construct because it is merely an animated object, or you could destroy an undead, and neither would be technically killing anything. In the case of undead, you are possibly actually freeing something to live which is currently unliving. In the case of constructs, it never was alive. There are a couple of related fantasy situations. For example, it's typical of fantasy curses that the victim is trapped in a form they can't escape from unless it is slain - a cursed demon bear, a magical fox, a feral half-man, etc. They often beg the hero to kill them. In D&D this rather makes sense. Killing someone permanently is relatively hard. If you assassinate someone, well, then their friends can just hire a cleric to Raise Dead and your vengeance is made mute. But if you trap the person in the form of an immortal ooze, well, now that is perhaps easier and a truly terrible vengeance indeed. No afterlife for you. Eternal humiliation and suffering. So in such a situation, a person with a Vow of Pacifism (or a taboo) probably couldn't slay the magical fox just because it begged them to, but an intellectual pacifist that had an inkling of what might be going on would probably not think they'd violated their morals by slaying the cursed creature's present physical form. And making the condition for breaking the enchantment being that they could only be killed by someone that loved them, now that would to an evil being seem like a tough condition to break.

There are other examples of things you could kill that wouldn't violate pacifism intellectually. The biggest and most universally agreed upon category would be I think fiends. Fiends are incarnated destructiveness. I can't imagine many Good pacifists claiming that they had a right to exist or claiming that Incarnated Death was actually alive in the same sense a person was. (But see Neutral pacifism mentioned earlier). In my game, basically no one, not even a person who was a pacifist and abhorred killing would normally have a problem with destroying something like a Lesser Darkness Spirit, a Sin Spirit, a Horror Spirit, a Disease Spirit, a Lesser Curse Spirit, a Cannibal Spirit, a Greater Doppelganger or any of the other hundreds of common incarnated evils, nor would they generally have a problem slaying the servitors of an evil god (something like a Pit Fiend), which they'd see as a cross between an evil spirit and a really fancy construct.

Depending on your cosmology, Aberrations might fall in a similar category. In my campaign, Aberrations are things that weren't meant to exist that were brought into being through evil magic.

If you total this up, even a fairly strict good Pacifist could still kill Undead, Constructs, Aberrations and Evil Outsiders. That's 4 very common foes. If you throw into that that many Pacifists only care if you kill things that are people, and are not the sort that see violence to an animal as being the same thing (most Amish aren't Vegans), then you can maybe add to that list unintelligent animals, oozes, plants, and the less intelligent sorts of dragons, beasts and magical beasts.

In some campaigns, we've now listed the majority of things you'd actually have to fight. The real sticking point would just be, "If the BBEG is human, can we kill the BBEG and his minions?" And my feelings as a DM is that if you want to play a Neutral Good character, that this should be something your character really wrestles with and worries about, even if the character isn't explicitly a Pacifist. I'd love for a PC to come up with a character concept of a character that preferred non-violent approaches and generally tried to avoid doing violence to 'people' and worried about how 'people' was defined.

I should say that in my game, all Fey, Goblinkind, Elves, Humans, Dwarves, Orine, and Idreth (two homebrew races) are explicitly defined as people and almost universally accepted as people. A few fanatics deny that Goblins are people any more, and some deny that Fey should be counted, but most of them that argue that way aren't 'Good'. (A PC who was Good but believed Goblins weren't people would be an interesting concept in my game.) The biggest moral controversy is over 'Half-People' or 'former People' generally. What about lycanthropes? Pure monsters or should you always try to cure them? Half-fey are obviously people, so almost no one is thinking the child of a Selkie and a Human is a monster and not a person, but what about someone whose parent is a dragon, a fiend, or a genii? Are they people as well, or does even a drop of the blood of monsters make you a non-person? Are the genii basically Fey, and therefore people, or are they something else? Are sorcerer's people? Assuming a sorcerer can be a person, is there some line after with a sorcerer stops being people and becomes a monster? Does even a drop of people blood make you are person? All the giants have people blood in them, so are they people as well? What about the Gods? Are they all people, or should they be counted as just powerful spirits? That is assuming you could destroy an evil god, would it be murder or would it be no different than destroying a curse spirit or a disease spirit? What about lesser servitors? Many of them - merfolk and minotaurs, for example - are former people. Are they still people? Doesn't it matter whether the being ever lived as a person, or if they are just descended from former persons?

I have opinions on these questions, but I generally keep them to myself and leave them open questions of the setting that the PC's are free to explore and come up with their own answers. Good philosophers and indeed even the Gods of Good don't agree on the answers. The questions are just too complex and don't lend themselves to easy solutions, and even the Gods aren't omniscient.

Sadly, players are rarely serious about this sort of thing or give it much a second thought, even when I have NPC's bring up their beliefs on this and even though my reward system considers converting someone to your cause or defeating them in any other long term manner to be as rewarding mechanically as killing them, and even when they are nominally playing a good character. The more usual sort of thing is to play for a few years and then start asking themselves, "Wait a minute.... have I just been going around murdering stuff just because I could?"

At least though, because of the way I introduce and RP goblin NPCs, it's generally accepted that goblin babies are still babies. That soul searching generally happens the first time the player realizes that the 'dungeon' is really just a goblin village. The inhabitants aren't necessarily nice, but they are just basically villagers. Sadly, I've never gotten to play two long campaigns with the same group to see if the player seriously reorients their perspective during play.
 
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I have opinions on these questions, but I generally keep them to myself and leave them open questions of the setting that the PC's are free to explore and come up with their own answers. Good philosophers and indeed even the Gods of Good don't agree on the answers. The questions are just too complex and don't lend themselves to easy solutions, and even the Gods aren't omniscient.
If the gods can't agree on alignment, there is no objective good or evil.

I had not before realized that my Communist necromancer
Good...

who went about imprisoning the souls of his enemies was Good all along :p
not good. Kthxbye.
 

If the gods can't agree on alignment, there is no objective good or evil.

Did we skip Plato in our introduction to Western philosophy course?

I didn't give a mere Aristotelian list of what things were Evil. I defined what Evil was. It would be evil even if the gods did it and believed it to be right. Indeed, some do.

In like manner, there would be a definition of Good, and not merely a list of proscriptions or prohibitions. Good would not merely be what the god's loved. In general, the Gods of Good agree on the ends. They know what Good is. They don't however agree on the means. They don't know how always to be the most Good. Completely knowing which means would lead to the best ends would require omniscience. When a Pacifist and a Righteous Soldier argue about how to accomplish Good, they don't generally suggest that the other is Evil or that the other doesn't know what Good is. They can have the highest respect for one another. They simply believe that the other is not acting according to the most perfect wisdom. They believe that one is not yet obtaining to perfection. The Righteous Soldier almost certainly agrees that the ideal situation is one where all swords are beat into plowshares, and there is never again a need to make war - he may admire the Pacifists commitment to trying to bring about that more perfect state. He just may think that some surgery is needed before we can get there, and the pacifist is thinking if at some point we don't stop fighting we'll never get there. But neither disagrees over what is objectively Good.

Moreover, the gods of good are all in agreement that they aren't the source of goodness. None of them are the wellspring from which all goodness flows. None of them is the embodiment of all that is good. They all have imperfect understanding. It's tremendously higher understanding that most mortals, but it's limited nonetheless.

Of course, in some sense you are right, in that each god generally believes that what they do is right, including the gods of evil. So in that sense, there is no easy way for a character inside the system to know which is the more correct approach to life - lawful evil or chaotic good or whatever. They all have their intelligent and wise advocates. Each can produce a persuasive argument on behalf of their beliefs. But those beliefs themselves can be objectively categorized as Good or Evil or Chaotic or whatever. You might not agree that Chaotic ought to triumph over Lawful. You might think that Chaos is what is right, and that the villains are the advocates of Law. And no one would be there to be the ultimate authority regarding whether your judgment is correct. In that sense, there would be no objective right or wrong from the perspective of the inhabitants of this fantasy space we've created. Is existence better than nonexistence? Who can prove it? Is life better than death, health better than sickness, creation better than annihilation? You can argue over that.

But we don't need a group of pagan polytheistic limited created deities to agree in order to have an objective good, least of all in a world where you could wait a while and objectively measure the results because good is a tangible thing. "Yep, more good.", or "Sorry, I guess you were right."
 

Did we skip Plato in our introduction to Western philosophy course?

Completely knowing which means would lead to the best ends would require omniscience.

When a Pacifist and a Righteous Soldier argue about how to accomplish Good, they don't generally suggest that the other is Evil or that the other doesn't know what Good is.

Moreover, the gods of good are all in agreement that they aren't the source of goodness. None of them are the wellspring from which all goodness flows. None of them is the embodiment of all that is good.

Of course, in some sense you are right, in that each god generally believes that what they do is right, including the gods of evil.
I took the course, and then promptly forgot most of what I'd "learned." My point was that gods don't have to subscribe to higher powers. They ARE the higher powers. There is no Good until a god says there is.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the cause of seeking higher truths through philosophy, defining virtues, an attempt to solidify atheism? If so, I'm not sure that a definition of Good and real gods can coexist. (Do NOT mention the Babel fish...)

Also, I wouldn't put it past the gods to do their deeds knowing/believing fully that they are evil, partly because there's no consequence for a god being evil. If a person does evil things, though, they expect trouble, so they generally see being evil as a bad thing. Or they define their own thoughts and actions as generally good. (Sound familiar?)
 

I took the course, and then promptly forgot most of what I'd "learned." My point was that gods don't have to subscribe to higher powers. They ARE the higher powers. There is no Good until a god says there is.

A refresher course would appear to be in order.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the cause of seeking higher truths through philosophy, defining virtues, an attempt to solidify atheism?

As far as I know, you are wrong. Certainly there have been atheist philosophers who have wanted to define moral philosophies and even absolutist moral philosophies that don't depend in any way on theology or the existence of a higher power, but defining all of philosophy as that is basically ignoring broad swaths of philosophical thought. A bit of Thomas Aquinas, Descartes, and Newton might be in order. Heck, even Kantism need not be contradictory to a theistic world view.

If so, I'm not sure that a definition of Good and real gods can coexist. (Do NOT mention the Babel fish...)

Err... why not? It can be both true that Good and Truth can be discovered through moral reasoning, and that a real god is Good and True.

Also, I wouldn't put it past the gods to do their deeds knowing/believing fully that they are evil, partly because there's no consequence for a god being evil. If a person does evil things, though, they expect trouble, so they generally see being evil as a bad thing. Or they define their own thoughts and actions as generally good. (Sound familiar?)

It sounds familiar, it just sounds really boring and cynical. Boring because if we are going to have beings embody moral philosophy, it's ridiculous make them merely human in their motivations and beliefs as if ideal forms ought to be hypocritical if they are anything other than idealized hypocrisy. Cynical because it keeps falling into saying that all is evil and there is no good, which is sort of reminding me of my original post.

At a fundamental level, the big problem I see backing all your reasoning is that this word 'god' is being really vaguely and poorly defined, so that in between sentences (as it were), you are replacing one definition of the word with another and then rolling on forward without noticing you've done so. So you either need to decide if this 'god' is the Judeo-Christian god with his infinite properties, or if this 'god' you keep referencing is the incarnated emanations of some Platonic idea, or if this 'god' is merely a pagan superhuman figure lacking any particular differences from the ordinary mortals of common experience save for scale (indeed might even be simply elevated mortal figures), or somewhere else on the scale. Naturally, if from one sentence to the next, you replace the 'god' the word is referencing, you are going to end up with complete incoherence. You can say, "There is no Good apart from an Infinitely Good Creator Deity that is the Source of all Good Things", but then that statement is incoherent if you are saying, "There is no Good apart from Zeus." You can say, "I wouldn't put it past Zeus to do things knowing that they are evil, because Zeus incorporates into himself all the notions of how mortal kings behave good and bad, and because there are no consequences for Zeus being evil.", but then that would be incoherent if we were talking about an Infinitely Good Omniscient Creator Deity.

To put it into very modern terms, we could say that Superman is a god (higher order being) and that he is Good, but we would not say that things are Good because superman does them. Actually, forget Plato, Aquinas, and Kant, have you read Terry Pratchett? The Silmarillion? Modern fantasy generally?

And it is worth noting that D&D deities in general don't have to be either the Judeo-Christian god or Zeus, but to the extent that they are like one or the other they tend to be more like Zeus and not actually responsible for the creation of the universe, or its characteristics, much less the external qualities that might be seen evidenced in the design of the universe and imposed on it. So no, there is no reason to think that the gods of D&D are the higher powers, much less the highest powers, and even if they were they could still be subject to a non-personified but still real set of moral laws.
 
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You know this link took me straight to a Walmart commercial?

Anyway, show me a character who refuses to kill ANYTHING, and I'll show you a Good character.

I had not realized that pacifism was sufficient for Good. Does this mean that capturing a person and then allowing them to starve to death is something a Good character can do? Because that is perfectly consistent with "refus[ing] to kill ANYTHING": allowing a death cannot be identical to causing a death, which is how "kill" is defined (as far as I'm aware, anyway). Plus, the as-noted "you can be a 100% sincere pacifist and a necromancer."

Now, you might try to instead argue that pacifism is a necessary condition for being Good rather than a sufficient one (that is: you must be pacifist to be Good, but it doesn't guarantee that you are). Whether that position is defensible or not is another question.

As for the compatibility of Good and "gods," there are several (relatively) straightforward answers.

1. Gods may be called Good because they meet an external, objective standard of Good-ness, which exists independently of them; worshipers give them worship because they do remain consonant with this standard, and because said worship is more effective at creating a fulfilling life than simply revering the objective standard of Good-ness directly. (Gods, in general, have agency whereas the external standard of Good-ness does not.) This is probably the most reasonable answer in most D&D settings with well-known, active gods, because it (a) still allows for gods to change their minds/be wrong, and (b) provides some justification for concepts like "the gods can die" and other such things.

2. The gods have the power to literally make statements true or not, and thus declare by fiat what is "Good"; worshipers thus worship in order to be aware of what is "Good." This is problematic in any setting where there are multiple "Good" gods, as two gods might disagree about what "Good" means. Further, it is far more likely that a god the books call "Evil" would object to that classification, and would instead claim they have a different (and, of course, superior!) definition of "Good." You also have the more intractable issue of even the 'classically' "Good" gods disagreeing--if they literally have the power to make particular statements true, and they make statements which are mutually exclusive about what "Good" is, how do you know who is right?

3. We take the early Christian answer to the problem: the "Good" gods literally ARE Good. It is not that they are merely called Good because they meet the definition of Good, nor that they fiat declare what Good is. Their very nature IS "Good"-ness; in Platonic terms, the Good gods are the Form of the Good. They are powerful not because they meet or make some standard of Good, but because Good-ness finds its foundation in their inalienable nature. This is also difficult to square with the existence of multiple gods, though it loses the issue of "Evil" gods merely asserting that they have a different definition of "Good." One perspective on it, then, is that all of the "Gods of Light" (as 13A puts it), or whatever you want to call them, are simply different perspectives on one central concept.

(Essentially, these three are just expanded and D&D-ified versions of the two listed ideas of "piety" in Plato's Euthyphro and the more recent, AFAIK-Christian-in-origin "take a third option" idea.)
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-u-HCHCuHMg Am I evil?
[MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION] Yes, I'm guilty of using a broad definition of "god." That being: any of those creatures that contribute in the creation of reality. So, if you're the god of fertility, you have the power to make anything or everything fertile. Further, if another god seeks to supplant you, your portfolio becomes that god's domain if he succeeds. So, everything that exists does so because a god controls it. This is slightly larger than the Superman simile, because Superman doesn't allow things to exist - they do so without his permission.
[MENTION=6790260]EzekielRaiden[/MENTION] "Allowing" someone to starve to death, so long as he's your prisoner, is called murder. If someone else holds that person prisoner, and you don't help the prisoner, then the captor is doing the killing, not you. Maybe what you're asking is, "from whose perspective is Good?" The answer is, of course, "Good is in the eye of the beholder." But more broadly, since humans generally don't approve of killing, that answer is "Good is he who does not harm others."

I'm not sure your points agree with each other, but I like point 2: gods determine reality. If something is Good, it's because a god said so. Let Plato, the PC, define Goodness all he wants. He can then die in two days from something undiscovered (germ theory, or an act of a god), and theory comes face-to-face with reality.
 

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