D&D 5E On whether sorcerers and wizards should be merged or not, (they shouldn't)

Chaosmancer

Legend
They also pretty much stop at third, there are zero ritual spells of levels 4,7,8, & 9 with the remaining 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, & 6th level rituals being too niche & scattered to build much of a concept around other than "like a sorcerer but occasionally casts detect magic & tiny hut". Nobody is remarking about how the wizard's earlier cast/residual force multiplying rituals really saved Alice's bacon or that it's great how they let Bob wtfpn the bbeg so good or anything.

So, it is just that there are not a lot of high level rituals? I mean, they'd be nice, but it is kind of hard to see what they could even do.

Besides, I can actually confirm that Identify as a ritual has saved my characters in at least 2 separate campaigns. One just recently where it identified a Demonic Plague and how to cure it, and another when it helped us learn the password into a magically sealed lab where said plague was being created (activated a secondary trap on that door, but luckily I made all of my saves and came out okay.)

So, there is one ritual that clearly does get people remarking on how it saved our bacon.

Find Familiar is often touted as one of the most powerful spells in the game, my familiars have certainly done a lot of legwork for our party in scouting roles and offering the help action continually for advantage in combat. Really helped against a couple of BBeGs too.

Ritual Phantom Steed once nearly cracked a campaign of mine, by allowing the party to travel much, much, much faster than anticipated and therefore able to arrive in time to stop worse things from happening (being vague because that campaign was 4 or 5 years ago and the details were sketchy. I think it was them crossing the badlands and avoiding most of the encounters)

Water Breathing is of course a classic ritual to take.

So, again, your point seems far weaker than you think it is. Even with only 1st-3rd level rituals, they can alter the course of a campaign.

It proves that the "more spells!!"/"93!!" argument is lacking enough substance to support the weight being attached to it. It does that by proving that there are spells that are deliberately overtuned outside the range of that spell's level & it proves it with an official admission. As a result of that proof, "bigger spell list" as opposed to a slightly smaller list along with lots of early mid & late class features and archtype features with a more valuable casting stat needs more depth than just "more spells" even if there are 93 of them in order for the "more spells" point to hold the weight people were trying to give it when they made it.

I pointed out a problem that hurt the argument's merit & asked for supporting details that could lend it the merit they were attaching to it, was doubted that it existed at all, provided proof of my doubt being intentional choice from wotc, and still rather than supporting their own weak argument watching the people who made it backpedal into "it doesn't matter."

Fireball and Lightning Bolt doing a little too much damage somehow proves that more spells that can do more effects is not a boost?

Because those two classics are the only ones I'm aware of being overtuned. And they certainly don't pull enough weight to cancel out the issues with the Sorcerer, like having fewer spell slots in an advenutring day unless they erase metamagic from their character sheet.
 

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Undrave

Legend
Water Breathing is of course a classic ritual to take.

Water Walk is underrated too. It works on water, but also on any liquid, snow, quicksand and even lava (though you need protection from heat for that one). Up to ten creatures!

It only works for one hour compared to water breathing's 24 but still, it's useful. No concentration.
 

Ashrym

Legend
No, it's exactly the opposite for some spells that are created by wotc in a way that is deliberately overpowered for their level, conveniently sorcerer's share them with wizard or people trumpeting the mere presence of wizard specific spells would have immediately rattled them off on one of the many times they were asked to list top shelf wizard only spells...

You seem to be presenting biased opinion as fact here. This is what the PHB states on spell levels:

Every spell has a level from 0 to 9. A spell’s level is a general indicator of how powerful it is, with the lowly (but still impressive) magic missile at 1st level and the earth-shaking wish at 9th. Cantrips—simple but powerful spells that characters can cast almost by rote— are level 0.

The differences are in which pillars, how often used, and how situational a spell might be. Spells are definitely power ranked by estimated spell level.

You would need to back up the intent of the developers that you are claiming with some citation of some sort.

You also seem to be arguing from the presumption that sorcerers are actually getting to take all the spells the character wants to take. What you are actually doing is claiming a arbitrary number that suits your argument and not backing that number up. IME, playing a wizard or sorcerer forces making a choice in spells known vs prepped (and scribed) where both classes still want good spells they cannot afford to take. The difference is the sorcerer is impacted more in those choices because of the gap in known vs prepped (or learned).

If the sorcerer is not losing out on these spells with their smaller spell list & the wizard is not gaining any meaningful options, do they counterbalance the class specific tools granted to sorcerer given that using those tools would often result in them being mechanically disadvantaged by choosing to play in a way wotc tried to idiscourage? Simply saying that more spells exist does not answer the question or complete an argument that they counterbalance the class specific stuff that does grant significant mechanical benefits in play

Simply generating a buzz word phrase like "top shelf" does demonstrate any argument without context behind or application of the mechanics involved. A spell does not actually have to be "top shelf" to be useful. I use glyph of warding all the time even if it's not "top shelf", for example. That option isn't even available to me on a sorcerer and even if it were I would not have room to add it.

Thaat's quite the stretch, and an absurd one at that. Ritual spells are unfinished...

Again, citation needed. There's no evidence ritual spells are unfinished as opposed to deliberately limited.

There are, however, rituals commonly taken regardless of whether a person chooses to believe the list is incomplete or not. Find familiar and Leomund's tiny hut are considered excellent. Alarm, detect magic, comprehend languages, identify, and unseen servant are all pretty common. I like using magic mouth and Dramij's instant summons although that last one is rather expensive so no so common. A lot of people like water breathing.

Can I live without rituals? Sure. But it's disingenuous to claim they do not have value or are not an advantage. They all have their uses.

They also pretty much stop at third, there are zero ritual spells of levels 4,7,8, & 9 with the remaining 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, & 6th level rituals being too niche & scattered to build much of a concept around other than "like a sorcerer but occasionally casts detect magic & tiny hut". Nobody is remarking about how the wizard's earlier cast/residual force multiplying rituals really saved Alice's bacon or that it's great how they let Bob wtfpn the bbeg so good or anything.

Sorcerers have zero rituals from spell levels 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, or 9 so showing some dead ritual levels for a wizard does not prove a lack of value. It's also presumptuous to assume there needs to be rituals for every level.

The argument you just gave misapplies the value of rituals by making a claim about combat when the value comes out of combat. On that note, Dramij's instant summons could save Alice by way of the second application of the ritual. It's more reliable than scrying. ;)

Drawmij's instant summons can also be used to summon an item to help in the fight against the BBEG. It takes an action to do the summon. The ritual part is in preparing the summon and the gem. If it did not cost so much or if the spell caster had the resources to ignore the cost it's a pretty good ritual.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
So, it is just that there are not a lot of high level rituals?
I believe higher levels have already been excluded from whatever corner Na4 is painting towards.
There's no evidence ritual spells are unfinished as opposed to deliberately limited.
The distinction isn't really important, beyond how polite it may be to the folks that did the work, I suppose.

There aren't a whole lot of rituals. They're essentially free to the Wizard, so each one might as well be a 'wizard special ability.' …hm...

...Ok, yeah, 'intentionally limited' is sounding plausible.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Also, as a fan of the Dresden Files, I would like to throw something out there.

Jim Butcher wasn't writing DnD fan fiction when he wrote the Dresden Files. So, I think it should be fairly obvious that the Dresden Files will not perfectly emulate DnD style magic. They are two entirely different systems that just happen to share titles.

Just like Harry Potter's magic which rely's on no personal energy and allows the casting of anything, including death curses, just by knowing the right words and having a wand, is a third separate system that has nothing to do with DnD magic.

Oh of course. I'm just saying that the terms of one universe dont carry over to another. A good thing about D&D is that you can kinda sorta make a lot of characters from fantasy in it with a robust setting.

Now we need stats for forest people.
 

On that bolded but, not at all... but if people are going to throw our "Larger spell list!! 93 unique spells!!!" it's relevant to ask how many of them they believe are spells realistically likely to wind up on actual prepared spell lists for regular use because quite a few of them are niche, kinda redundant, or just massively overshadowed by other spells of the same level that are shared across spell lists
This is true. Many spells are pretty situational.
They can be really good the times you can pull them out: the best option bar none usually. But often the more generic spell is the better one to pick, since spells are limited. The more limited the choice, the more generic you have to go, and the less powerful you are compared to being able to pull out the more situational ones.

I've asked for a lot of things, that is not one. It is late in muh of the US at least, perhaps you are confusing your question with the many times I've asked people citing "bigger spell list" & "93 spells" to list off which of them that they think are top shelf spells?
I'm seeing "Must take spells" or "top shelf spells" a fair amount, but not much detail on them. Are there really than many in the shared Wiz/Sorc list?
Which ones would they be as a rough guideline? (Maybe stick to level 5 spells and below, since as you point out, campaigns tend to wind down soon after level 10ish.)
So, for each level of spells, 1 ->5, which are the ones that a caster (Wiz or Sorc) really needs. (Or at least is seriously and needlessly limiting themselves by not taking.)
How many of each spell level, and are any only on one of the two spell lists?
 

SkidAce

Legend
Supporter
Again.

Harry Dresden is a multiclassed wizard and sorcerer. ALL wizards in the dresdenverse are sorcerer's.

Sorcery is the first magic you learn as it is controlling your personal energy. You can learn that with no training.

Wizards are offended by the term because they know more than sorcery. They are also know Thaumaturgy and Alchemy when is wizard and artificer respectfully. Thaumaturgy and alchemy requires a teacher and years of tough brutal training.

Interesting premise.

I could envision a campaign where everyone starts "sorcerer", then either continues, or chooses to multiclass to wizard.

Kinda simulates all the tropes in fiction and games.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I'm seeing "Must take spells" or "top shelf spells" a fair amount, but not much detail on them. Are there really than many in the shared Wiz/Sorc list?
There are a lot of spells on that list (both Sorc & Wizard get the spell). About 120, or a third of all spells in the PH.

But, letsee, the revered Treantmonk seems to think the cream of the crop are:

Mage Armor
Shield
Find Familiar
Misty Step
Mirror Image
Levitate
Counterspell
Leomund's Tiny Hut
Hypnotic Pattern
Major Image
Animate Dead
Polymorph
Wall of Force
Animate Objects
Mass Suggestion
Forcecage
Simulacrum
Mind Blank
Maze
Prismatic Wall
True Polymorph

That is more spells than the Sorcerer can know, but, he doesn't have to worry about these, as they're not on his list:

Find Familiar
Leomund's Tiny Hut
Animate Dead
Wall of Force
Forcecage
Simulacrum
Mind Blank
Maze
Prismatic Wall
True Polymorph


FWIW
Edit: Apparently the top-shelf ubermage relies on cantrips & allies for such trivial things as offense.
 
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Tony Vargas

Legend
Wizards can rake a dex race and use a crossbow as well as a fighter due to having the same proficiency bonus? Was that not a thing?
Well, at level 1-4, if the fighter didn't take the archery combat style, but is using a crossbow...
…and it's basically target practice, sure. Seems at odds with want'n to be all 'top shelf' in the spell department, tho.
 

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