OOC - [Epic] Scions of the Endless Falls - Full

[Kangaxx]

Don't worry about it, Pilmer probably would have revealed himself soon anyway.

Portraying epic character's mental stats is an interesting conundrum. A genius in real life is a comparative moron next to most of the party members. So how do you portray someone that much smarter than yourself? Your idea about incredible leaps of logic sounds good, but it kind of breaks down when you don't have the other person's character sheet to look at.

I added some mundane items to Pilmer's character sheet, because I simply forgot to do so earlier. Hopefully that's not a problem.

 

[Kelleris]

I am well aware of how blindsight and -sense work, although I would like to ask Isida if I can take a -20 penalty to hide from blindsense and a -40 to hide from blindsight. (The "practically impossible" and "really, really practically impossible" penalties, respectively.)

I'm not using Hide in Plain Sight at the moment, since I gather we are in a forest. It shouldn't be necessary. Aside from that, I don't think true seeing would work anyway, since it's not actually hiding me: my Hide check is what is actually concealing me, and true seeing does not negate that. It does pinpoint people protected by magical concealment, but it doesn't negate it. And since all the "virtual concealment" of Hide in Plain Sight is doing is letting me hide, true seeing doesn't help unless you already know where I am. Hide in Plain Sight merely extends the range of the Hide skill; it does nothing by itself to help it (no bonuses or anything here).

@ Kangaxx - Yeah, I know. I'm enjoying my omniscience while it lasts! Hopefully Isida will be able to help me out with the rest of it; you really need the DM's help to fake being that smart.

 

[Wrahn]

I am well aware of how blindsight and -sense work, although I would like to ask Isida if I can take a -20 penalty to hide from blindsense and a -40 to hide from blindsight. (The "practically impossible" and "really, really practically impossible" penalties, respectively.)

I'm not using Hide in Plain Sight at the moment, since I gather we are in a forest. It shouldn't be necessary. Aside from that, I don't think true seeing would work anyway, since it's not actually hiding me: my Hide check is what is actually concealing me, and true seeing does not negate that. It does pinpoint people protected by magical concealment, but it doesn't negate it. And since all the "virtual concealment" of Hide in Plain Sight is doing is letting me hide, true seeing doesn't help unless you already know where I am. Hide in Plain Sight merely extends the range of the Hide skill; it does nothing by itself to help it (no bonuses or anything here).

Common sense tells me that allowing you to hide to Blindsense and Blindsight with scores that high isn't a wise thing.

If hide in plain sight was an extraordinary ability, then you would be correct, but it is supernatural. Since it is impossible without magical mean to hide while being observered, True Seeing blocks your attempt to hide, in essence you don't even roll. Likewise it is impossible to hide without concealment of some nature, thus again True Seeing negate Hide in Plain Sight and you, since you can't be hidden, are visible.

I just wanted to give you a heads up so you could be prepared.

 

[Kangaxx]

The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things.

Hide in Plain Sight is not darkness, a door, the spell blur, the spell displacement, a provider of invisibility, an illusion, or an altered form. Thus true seeing does not prevent it from working.

 

[Kelleris]

True seeing doesn't negate whatever it is that Hide in Plain Sight represents, since it isn't actually hiding me. But it's close enough either way to be Isida's call.

EDIT: And what Kangaxx said...

Why do you think it's a bad idea for me to be able to Hide from blindsight/sense with a massive penalty? It brings it well within a good spotter's rolls, and it lets my skills stay useful as more and more things have access to these abilities. Since I can walk on water with a good Balance roll, I don't see that it's terribly unreasonable either.

 

[Ferrix]

I'd probably say no to hiding from blindsense/sight or make it a DC of about 100 for Blindsense and 120 for blindsight, as that seems to match some of the really epic DC's (climbing on a perfectly smooth, flat, overhang or ceiling DC 100). I don't know what that would exactly translate into a penalty, but I imagine it would be pretty massive. -60 to -80 at least.

 

[Wrahn]

Hide in Plain Sight is not darkness, a door, the spell blur, the spell displacement, a provider of invisibility, an illusion, or an altered form. Thus true seeing does not prevent it from working.

The list is a set of examples. That is not the only thing that it does, it shows magically hidden things, like people hiding in plain sight.

Here is the text from the spell:

You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. Further, the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extradimensional spaces). The range of true seeing conferred is 120 feet.

True seeing, however, does not penetrate solid objects. It in no way confers X-ray vision or its equivalent. It does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like. True seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding, or notice secret doors hidden by mundane means. In addition, the spell effects cannot be further enhanced with known magic, so one cannot use true seeing through a crystal ball or in conjunction with clairaudience/clairvoyance.

Material Component: An ointment for the eyes that costs 250 gp and is made from mushroom powder, saffron, and fat.

Hide in Plain Sight is magical concealment, True Seeing sees through it.

 

[Kelleris]

Right, but the thing is that Hide in Plain Sight isn't concealment. If you use the ability without rolling a Hide check, you aren't concealed. If you use the ability and roll a 3, you aren't concealed. All it does is let you use Hide when you otherwise couldn't, which isn't something that true seeing even looks at.

As far as the Hide check, I would say that, in terms of difficulty, hiding from blind(whatever) is more like balancing on a thread/balancing on water in terms of difficulty. The 120 DC (balancing on a cloud, walking through a wall of force) would be something liking making a Hide check to evade scrying.

That said, I would prefer a penalty. With a penalty, I still have to roll once my check gets up that high* (it already can with improvisation), instead of just laughing off a reasonably powerful (if decidedly non-epic) ability. I picked the -20/-40 because it's a hefty penalty that doesn't cripple me at the same time. If they have ranks in perception skills, or general bonuses, or roll really high, they can see me. Otherwise I'll be rolling a negative number half the time.

Also, look at the bonuses for being invisible. +20 if you're moving, and +40 if you aren't. Blindsense is analogous to the former (you can kinda make them out, but imperfectly and only by traces), while blindsight is analogous to the latter (they're completely invisible, and they aren't even stirring up any traces). Reversing the bonuses seems reasonable for flawed pinpointing and perfect pinpointing.

Aside from all that, it's pretty reasonable to pitch the DC somewhere where I can get it, but where it's still a challenge. I am, after all, the skill guy. Setting the skill DC for something that I imagine I'll want to do fairly frequently too high (and, remember, blind[whatever] is something we'll run into with fair frequency; every last abomination has it, for instance) would be rather like setting saving throws so high that the party wizard can never cast the fun save (nagates) spells. Aside from that, it's hardly a broken ability. Rogues barely have to roll Hide/Move Silently anymore at lower levels (IME); having all those ranks, high ability scores, money, and whatnot contributing to Hide, just so I can tread relative water with lower-level sneaky guys is pretty, well... non-epic.

*I also think the checks to see through illusions should work this way. In a perfect world the party rogue shouldn't be immune to the illusions of a 40th-level illusionist.

 

[Ferrix]

Where is improvisation from?
I'd have to say to avoid blindsight/sense, you would have to succeed at both a Hide and Move Silently check with penalties to both. That's my humble opinion.

 

[Kelleris]

Improvisation is from Song and Silence. I have waited for years to have a bard of high enough level to take it and with an open slot. So sad...

You can find the basics of it at Crystal Keep, page 11, third column.

And yeah, assuming I'm both moving and hiding (likely as not), it would be both that I would have to roll. I'm just not as worried about Move Silently checks because of zone of silence.*

* - For some reason, bard-only spells tend to be remarkably good. Improvisation + glibness + zone of silence = And don't even get me started on having heroism at 2nd level...