Optimizers, oh my!

[Lanefan]

But isn't that a failure of game design? Why should one PC, with the same number of XP as another PC, be mechanically less effective?

Why not? That's how it is in reality...two people can be just as experienced at doing a given activity yet one is (and probably always will be) clearly better at it than the other.

The design would be a failure if everybody was the same.

Lanefan

 

[Sunseeker]

Why not? That's how it is in reality...two people can be just as experienced at doing a given activity yet one is (and probably always will be) clearly better at it than the other.

The design would be a failure if everybody was the same.

Lanefan

But the game isn't reality. And we aren't playing you and me, we're playing Bob the Barbarian and Phil the Paladin.

I don't propose every player be equal in every way all the time. Sometimes you shine in the face of dragons and demons, other times it's undead and aberrations. Others still it's skills or exploration or combat. At the end of the day players should be equitable overall and excel in the areas they chose to.

No class should be CoDzilla compared to the rest. Some classes might be a little better than others, a little worse, and builds are certainly under no requirement to be balanced, those are player choices. But the bare bones of each class should be roughly even.

 

[timASW]

For me, design and support that will assist me running the game and evoking the mood I want is part of the point of having rules - and I'd far rather be flexible about systems than try to hammer a square peg into a round hole. And if it won't go into the hole it's meant to I wonder why I paid money for it.

Yeah but how do you get other people to be flexible about other systems? About half the people I've gamed with over the years have never played anything other then some edition of D&D and practically sneer at the idea of even cracking a book from another system, much less actually trying it. I had to practically pull teeth just to get one player to try True20 and that only happened because I played up how much it was a "streamlined D&D".

If it were up to me i wouldnt ever play 3e anymore, or PF and definitely not 4e. I'd be playing Dark heresy or Rogue trader, with small tweaks even for fantasy settings.

So how are you finding people for all these superior (not sarcasm) indie games? Maybe its local but most of the gamers here are extremely close minded.

 

[pemerton]

Why not? That's how it is in reality...two people can be just as experienced at doing a given activity yet one is (and probably always will be) clearly better at it than the other.

The design would be a failure if everybody was the same.

How many dimensions of skill does the game need? In classic Gygaxian D&D, player skill is already reflected in the rate at which XP are earned. Why do we need an additional element of skill in PC build once those XP have been acquired?

 

[Neonchameleon]

Yeah but how do you get other people to be flexible about other systems? About half the people I've gamed with over the years have never played anything other then some edition of D&D and practically sneer at the idea of even cracking a book from another system, much less actually trying it. I had to practically pull teeth just to get one player to try True20 and that only happened because I played up how much it was a "streamlined D&D".

If it were up to me i wouldnt ever play 3e anymore, or PF and definitely not 4e. I'd be playing Dark heresy or Rogue trader, with small tweaks even for fantasy settings.

So how are you finding people for all these superior (not sarcasm) indie games? Maybe its local but most of the gamers here are extremely close minded.

I've literally never had problems with this. I pitch the game - the system is secondary. Or for the more extreme Indy games I go to the local Indygames meetup. (For the record my next campaign pitch is probably going to be "In 2002 a crack commando team was sent to prison for a crime they didn't commit..." and using the Leverage rules.) But it is probably local issues.

If I were trying to open a group up, I wouldn't jump straight into DH or anything else rules heavy. I'd start with trying for a one-shot game of either Dread, Fiasco, or possibly even a very simple Dogs in the Vineyard scenario. Something you can pull out of the bag to run when two players or the DM are off ill so you don't have to call off the session, and that won't leave you with an abandoned campaign.

 

[timASW]

I've literally never had problems with this. I pitch the game - the system is secondary. Or for the more extreme Indy games I go to the local Indygames meetup. (For the record my next campaign pitch is probably going to be "In 2002 a crack commando team was sent to prison for a crime they didn't commit..." and using the Leverage rules.) But it is probably local issues.

If I were trying to open a group up, I wouldn't jump straight into DH or anything else rules heavy. I'd start with trying for a one-shot game of either Dread, Fiasco, or possibly even a very simple Dogs in the Vineyard scenario. Something you can pull out of the bag to run when two players or the DM are off ill so you don't have to call off the session, and that won't leave you with an abandoned campaign.

Thats an interesting idea that i might need to give a try

 

[CroBob]

I figured I'd just share a story within this thread. In the last game I ran there was a spiked chain user. He didn't have the int for combat expertise and his strength, while giving a positive mod, wasn't that high. He used weapon finesse, took a couple levels in Exotic Weapon Master, and then worked his way into justicar. His build probably would have been laughed at on optimization boards but everyone at the table enjoyed his character ... except one player. Who thought his character was weak and only "half a build" and felt that he was playing D&D wrong.

I think that summarizes the issue people have with optimizers in D&D. It's when they come off as elitist and snobby and look down on what another is doing because they find it fun.

Well, it also matters what the player's attitude and intents are. If he's insulting another player for a sub-optimal choice, that's kind of a dick move. If, on the other hand, he's simply attempting to be informative and help out one of his fellow players, that's entirely different. Yes, saying you're playing "wrong" is a dick move, but I've also encountered sensitive people/players who, when someone is simply trying to help, they take it as an insult anyway. I've witnessed that problem in-game, where one character was simply asking questions of the guy making the plan. The guy was sincerely curious, trying to figure out what was going on, but the man with the plan took it as insulting. There's a disconnect in communication styles at the core, here, so be sure to watch out for that problem.

 

[Grogg of the North]

Well, it also matters what the player's attitude and intents are. If he's insulting another player for a sub-optimal choice, that's kind of a dick move. If, on the other hand, he's simply attempting to be informative and help out one of his fellow players, that's entirely different. Yes, saying you're playing "wrong" is a dick move, but I've also encountered sensitive people/players who, when someone is simply trying to help, they take it as an insult anyway. I've witnessed that problem in-game, where one character was simply asking questions of the guy making the plan. The guy was sincerely curious, trying to figure out what was going on, but the man with the plan took it as insulting. There's a disconnect in communication styles at the core, here, so be sure to watch out for that problem.

The opinion of those at the table was it was closer to "Being a jerk" than "Trying to offer advice".

 

[CroBob]

Then that.

 

[Sunseeker]

Yeah but how do you get other people to be flexible about other systems? About half the people I've gamed with over the years have never played anything other then some edition of D&D and practically sneer at the idea of even cracking a book from another system, much less actually trying it. I had to practically pull teeth just to get one player to try True20 and that only happened because I played up how much it was a "streamlined D&D".

If it were up to me i wouldnt ever play 3e anymore, or PF and definitely not 4e. I'd be playing Dark heresy or Rogue trader, with small tweaks even for fantasy settings.

So how are you finding people for all these superior (not sarcasm) indie games? Maybe its local but most of the gamers here are extremely close minded.

My biggest issue is that while there are many people who are adamant about playing their obscure system for whatever reasons they have, there are precious few of them who are willing to take the time to teach the system to new players. Most will give just a cursory lesson on a few parts of the system and expect new players to be totally set by the next game. With more readily available resources and information for non-indie games, it's easier for a player to acquaint themselves with the system without the need for teaching.

So it's really not surprising that people won't play new games when experience, at least with myself, has taught people that noone wants to help you. It's fairly frustrating and it doesn't spur a desire to be flexible on the issue.