Orcs, hmm...

[ConcreteBuddha]

And ConcreteBuddha... If your group walks into an orc ambush (Spot DC25), those greataxes may easily hurt a lot. And your archers probably won't fire one shot at all. Just let the orcs be lucky on initiative plus surprise round and all except your lizard may be down.

How exactly are Orcs ambushing with a -4 to Move Silently and Hide checks? (Scale Mail) Also, anything is difficult if you give it an ambush. An ambush should always modify the CR of the creature upwards.

I was talking straight encounters where both sides are aware. Anything else makes the encounter harder (and thus a higher CR.)

 

[Corlon]

CR 1/6.

Yeah, never underestimate kobolds!

Kobold tribes with a sorcerer chieftain and some lvl1 sorcerer apprentices with True Strike can really bug high level groups at long distance

Thank YOU, no one has ever said that for me, I always knew kobolds were the best!

 

[JChung2003]

Re: Re: Orcs, hmm...

Elven Archer Cleric Rapid Shot Twink.
Elven Archer Fighter/Rogue Rapid Shot Twink.
24 AC Lizardman Twink. (me)
Human Bastard Sword TWF Twink.

A lizardman with 2 class levels is ECL 4. See DMG p. 22 for details.

CR measures difficulty for a standard group with full hit points, full spells, and equipment appropriate for their level, not min-maxed twinks.

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

Re: Re: Re: Orcs, hmm...

A lizardman with 2 class levels is ECL 4. See DMG p. 22 for details.

That's correct.
.
.
.
However, never did I say that I had 2 class levels. I was a base lizardman. Hence I was ECL 2.

See DMG p. 22 for details.

CR measures difficulty for a standard group with full hit points, full spells, and equipment appropriate for their level, not min-maxed twinks.

Neat. Take 4 of the elite NPCs from the DMG: A fighter, a fighter/rogue, a barbarian and a cleric. Give them 900 gp each.

Now tell me that you can't easily defeat four creatures who each have a 4 hps and a 14 AC.
.
.
.
Sure...four wizards are going to get the crap kicked out of them. I guess that's the reason why they get Time Stop at high levels. Serve's them right for sucking at low levels.

(Unless, of course, they use sleep or color spray. Then they'd rock those silly little orcs.)

 

[JChung2003]

Try playing a standardly equipped level 1 group sometime (standard equipment kits) and see how well they fare against orcs. Then maybe you will understand where I am coming from.

 

[Darklone]

Try playing a standardly equipped level 1 group sometime (standard equipment kits) and see how well they fare against orcs. Then maybe you will understand where I am coming from.

Yeah but well, if I want boring monsters to kill I play Diablo.

 

[Dr_Rictus]

Try playing a standardly equipped level 1 group sometime (standard equipment kits) and see how well they fare against orcs. Then maybe you will understand where I am coming from.

When my group of D&D newbies was level 1 (not that long ago)? The 2 orcs would probably have fallen over from a color spray in the first round, and they'd have been lucky to even hit the halfling barbarian in the front line before that happened. The ranger in the other half of the front line might've had a problem, except he probably would have shot one of the 2 orcs to death before they even reached him.

On the other hand, in a situation where I set up an ambush of 9 orcs against the same party at 4th level (and, as mentioned before, you really have to set it up carefully, since it's not like the orcs can hide or sneak), the party still lost a character to a lucky critical in the first round. But the off chance of a lucky x3 critical is hardly a basis for assigning a higher CR, in my opinion. On the whole, it was a level-appropriate challenge where one party member happened to get unlucky, after the whole party had been foolish by ignoring some shriekers (which is how the orcs managed to ambush them in the first place).

 

[Tetsuyama]

Say you have a pretty standard party:

BBN 1 w/Power Attack and Cleave, wielding a 2H sword, at 14 Str and 14 Con, does 2d6+3 when not raging, which should autokill a standard Orc, and with Cleave, should be killing two per round. Raging, can't be killed with one blow unless the Orcs get a crit.

Round the party out with ROG 1, SOR 1, and CLE 1.

Say the Rogue and Sorcerer have Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot, Rogue with shortbow, Sorcerer with light crossbow. The two of them together do 1d6+1d8, so 8 points on average, easily killing an Orc (without using magic). The cleric probably doesn't have the feats to have a reasonable chance of shooting into Melee, so hangs back and waits to heal the meat shield.

This fight almost certainly uses up a heal from the Cleric, and some crossbow bolts. Might well add up to 25% of the party's resources for the day. But ultimately, the party should gut two Orcs like fish in a stand-up fight.

This party could probably even take on four to six, especially given a round of ranged combat, and that the Barbarian can charge farther than the Orcs can (so long as he can avoid getting flanked). In that scenario, arcane casting becomes more important, and the Cleric's crossbow comes into play since at least at first, nobody's in melee. If you change the Barbarian to a Fighter, it gets a little trickier since he can't soak quite as much damage and can't rage.

I'll grant you, if the Orcs get an ambush on them, then most of the party probably dies. But then again, two Orcs from ambush is, as stated before, more than an ECL 1.