(OT) Hmmm Star Wars II Seen it I have! Continued

[Ristamar]

LOL! So true, so sadly true. While many (if not most) people thought the Yoda fight was cool, I (obviously in the minority) thought that it was . . . embarrassing . . . undignified... like you said, a big joke.

And, despite what others may claim, I am allowed to have certain expectations based on previous artistic work. The Yoda of Empire and Jedi clearly thought that "wars do not make one great." Now he is "a great warrior" in Clones (a characterization that is focused upon in the current commercials). This is not "personal growth." It is sloppy characterization. A writer or director cannot change the nature of his characters arbitrarily. Like many critics have noted, Yoda has gone from Ghandi to Rambo. Is that "personal growth"? Or merely a way to get a cheap thrill out of the audience?

I can understand that you might've thought the scene was silly, but I honestly think you're nitpicking with your claims of sloppy characterization. The commercial tagline is obviously an anecdotal throwback to Yoda's little quip in Empire, not some grand declaration of hypocrisy. I really don't see how this is an arbitrary character change considering how little we knew of Yoda before the prequels began to emerge, and I think the Ghandi to Rambo analogy is more than a slight exaggeration, as well (one 5 minute squabble through 4 movie appearances doesn't exactly qualify one as an action star, IMO).

Admittedly, the fight scene may have clashed with one's personal connotations of Yoda, or perhaps it may have come off as a bit silly, but crying foul primarily because of two words in a 30 second TV spot is truly pulling at straws. But, again, that's just my opinion.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

This is actually a very good point. Let's hope that Mr. Lucus actually runs with this idea. It would make sense. It just rankles me that they're focusing so much on Yoda being a "great warrior" in the commercials. It seems rather hypocritical to me in some way I don't completely understand. In fact, I haven't felt this upset about a commercial since one claimed that "before there were hobbits there was Willow"....

I have to assume that both of those commercials are the product of a marketing department and that Lucas is just being typically unplugged.

Of course, "wars do not make one great" does not necessarily mean that he's not a great warrior. Just that being a great warrior does not make one a great person. In fact, it might make it harder. It certainly did for Anakin.

 

[Rel]

This is actually a very good point. Let's hope that Mr. Lucus actually runs with this idea. It would make sense. It just rankles me that they're focusing so much on Yoda being a "great warrior" in the commercials.

Well, frankly I would be hard pressed to imagine that it can be overlooked. In Episode III, there has got to be some point where Yoda (perhaps along with Obi-Wan) looks at the situation and says, "What have we allowed to happen?!" (Actually, knowing Yoda, he'll probably say, "Along the primrose path we have been led.")

Also, over the weekend, my wife and I watched both Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back just to sort of see how "backward compatible" they were. One thing that I noticed was how much of a "crazy old man" vibe Yoda has when he first meets Luke (compared to how he is portrayed in TPM and AOTC). I mean, he is eating Luke's rations, playing with his flashlight and banging on R-2 with a stick. This from the guy who used to command the most powerful group of elite individuals in the galaxy and live in a luxury apartment building on Coruscant.

So it seems to me that living with the guilt of what happened on his watch has driven Yoda ever so slightly mad. But once he falls back into his role of being a teacher, he is the zen little philosopher that we all know and love. So, in a way, Luke helps Yoda at least as much as Yoda helps Luke.

Luke must represent to him a chance to redeem himself in his own eyes. But he also represents the possibility of making a bad situation even worse (if Luke turns to the Dark Side). So it is a huge gamble that he is taking and he is understandably reluctant to let Luke go to aid his friends.

This is also telling when you compare it to the events in AOTC. Perhaps Yoda realizes that the rigid restraints placed on Anakin by the Jedi order were indirectly responsible for his turn to the Dark Side (No, Anakin, you can't go back to Tatooine to rescue your mother. No, Anakin, you can't fall in love with a woman and get married.). He doesn't want to make the same mistake with Luke so he lets him go to the aid of the people he loves.

When you get right down to it, it is no wonder that the Jedi order normally only takes in kids when they are very young. If you let them get older, they will have formed emotional attachments to other people which will be stronger than their dedication to their Jedi training. That leaves them wide open for emotional blackmail. It happened to Luke when Vader used Leia and Han to bring him to Bespin. And of course Vader learned that trick when Palpatine used Amidala to pull him toward the dark side.

Ugh. Sorry for the disertation.

 

[Fenros]

Rel wrote:

One thing that I noticed was how much of a "crazy old man" vibe Yoda has when he first meets Luke (compared to how he is portrayed in TPM and AOTC). I mean, he is eating Luke's rations, playing with his flashlight and banging on R-2 with a stick. This from the guy who used to command the most powerful group of elite individuals in the galaxy and live in a luxury apartment building on Coruscant.

So it seems to me that living with the guilt of what happened on his watch has driven Yoda ever so slightly mad. But once he falls back into his role of being a teacher, he is the zen little philosopher that we all know and love. So, in a way, Luke helps Yoda at least as much as Yoda helps Luke.

Whoa, I think you missed entirely what Yoda was doing there in Empire Strikes Back. He was acting silly on purpose. He knew Luke was coming. He was testing him. Checking him out. He was pretending to be some crazy little annoying guy to test Luke. To see what kind of patience he had.

Luke failed, he (as well as the audience that saw this movie for the first time without prior knowledge) thought Yoda was some crazy swamp goblin side character. He treated Yoda like he was a nobody. Based off appearances. Something a Jedi shouldn't do.

If someone that looked like Chow-Yun Fat's character from "Crouching Tiger/Hidden Dragon" walked out of the swamp, maybe Luke would've thought that he could be this great Jedi.......could be worthy of respect. Instead, he gets this little goblin thing who's overly curious but harmless. But Luke immediately thinks he's not worth reverence or respect. Luke respected him as much as one of us respects a street bum. Thus, he failed Yoda's test.

Oh, and as much as I thought AOTC failed in film directing/editing, I still thought the portrayal of Yoda was fine. He's very much like some old martial arts monk. He only resorts to the physical when he needs to. Count Dooku initiated a duel between them using sabers only. Yoda had enough honor and confidence to go along with that duel. Its clearly obvious afterward that Yoda is very unhappy about having to go the route of violence. But its something that was unavoidable. It just had to be done. Both the attack of the Clones and the duel with Dooku. If it were up to him, both would've never happened. I felt Yoda in Ep1 and Ep2 was still very much in line with Yoda in Ep5 and Ep6. I think a lot of people are reading too much into it or something weird.

 

[Rel]

Of course you are right, Fenros. As I said, I was watching the old movies to see how they fit together with the new ones so I'm admittedly reading too much into it.

But if what you say is true, and Luke did fail Yoda's test, then why did he train him anyway? I think that what I said about the dangerous prospects of Luke going Dark Side is pretty much on the mark. And Yoda already knows that "There is another." So why not skip training Luke who clearly lacks the patience for it and go right to Leia?

I suppose I can sort of answer my own questions. I guess the whole "bird in the hand" philosophy applies here. Luke was already on Dagobah and Yoda had no way of knowing where Leia was (until Luke started having visions of Bespin). Therefore, even though he failed the test, he was the best shot at the moment. (It occurs to me that this is precisely the kind of pragmatism that got him into trouble when he decided to grab the nearest clone army to help him out with his crisis in Ep II.)

I guess you could also argue that Yoda wasn't going to train Luke until Obi-Wan talked him into it. One thing that bothered me about that exchange was that when Yoda asserted that Luke was too rash and impatient to begin the training, Obi-Wan replied with something along the lines of "Was I any different when you started training me?" From what we've seen in Episode I and II, Obi-Wan was very much a "toe the line" kind of Jedi. He attempted to be a moderating influence on both his master (Qui-Gon) and his apprentice when each tried to strain against the will of the Jedi Council.

Anyhow, let me just clarify one thing about my speculations in the post above: I know that what Fenros says is correct. Yoda in ESB was not "crazy from guilt". He was a bit silly because it put him in the role of an unlikely hero and tossed the whole "never judge a book by its cover" moral into the story. I understand the causality link that I'm proposing does not exist.

But still it is fun to speculate and I suppose that it directly stems from my roleplaying experience. As a GM, I often throw disperate plots at the party early in a campaign. Sometimes I like to go back and reexamine these plots and see if they somehow fit together in a way that suggests a larger story arc. I've gotten pretty good at filling in the cracks between these plots and explaining away any inconsistencies. So it is only natural that I'm trying to do the same thing with Star Wars. All in all, a fairly fun, if useless exercise.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Yoda has certainly become the most interesting person in the movies in my opinion. The one thing you have to realise is that Yoda is not perfect. He makes mistakes in the first two movies and he even makes a mistake in Empires.

In EP1 Yoda makes the mistake of tradition. Jedi tradition seems to say a Jedi Master can take on any pupil he or she wants. When Obi Wan says he will take on Anakin there is nothing for Yoda to do. This puts a very difficult student in the hands of a brand new teacher. A better solution would have been to make Anakin the Padawan of either Yoda himself of Mace Windu both Jedi with much more experience in teaching.

In EP2 Yoda makes a further mistake of sending a very inexperienced and headstrong Anakin off on a mission alone with a female senator who is also equally well known to be headstrong. At the same time the entire Jedi order make a huge mistake in not altering its rules to fit Anakins uniqie position. Unlike every Jedi before him Anakin knows his mother. He has strong attachments to her. This makes her a continual distractionm. The smart move on the part of the Jedi would have been to send someone to purchase his mother and then relocated her to somewhere comfortable on say Naboo where Anakin could no longer worry about how her life was. The nightmares Anakin was getting were very strong and appeared to be rather unusual for a Jedi. It makes me wonder if they were natural of Sith enhanced.

Finally in Empires Yoda makes yet another mistake. He teaches Luke how to use the force to see and the result is he sees the danger to his friends on Bespin. Yoda makes the mistake even worse by trying to keep Luke from leaving. My guess is that Yoda saw Luke leaving to be the same as when Anakin ran off to Tatooine and started his path down the dark side by salughtering the Sand People. This is a mistake for Yoda because the two events are not the same. Anakin went for selfish reasons and even willingly let people down and put Padme at risk. She is still technically being hunted. Luke on the other hand was acting in a manner full of self sacrifice. I very much doubt that the dark side has much of a chance grabbing hold of someone who is willing to do so much selflessly. The Bespin scene in fact was not as big a failure as poeple would think. Sure Leia and Chewie were able to escape on their own and even had to save Luke. Luke though got to learn how powerful the Dark Side was and who his father was. These were valuable lessons that helped prepare Luke for his encounter with the Emperor. How do you think the final battle had turned out if Luke had learned who his father was in the thrown room? Odds are much worse, without that knowledge Luke would have never had a chance to feel that little bit of good that was in his father. That knowledge is what held back Lukes final strike on Vader while Vader was down. There is little doubt that Luke would have fully turned to the Dark Side if he had killed Vader in rage.

Finally there is the Leia, someone asked why Yoda did not skip Luke and train Leia instead.

Yeah like that would have ever happened. You have a choice between a young and impressionable youth who has lived on Tatooine all his life OR his sister the grizzled former Imperial Senator and life long politician.

I doubt Yoda would think it a very good idea to train Leia very much in the Jedi way. I doubt he has much faith in any sort of Politicians. Also I doubt Leia is all that gifted in the Force really. If she was then how did she spend all that time in the Imperial Senate without Darth Vader or the Emperor sensing it.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

I largely agree with you, Doc, but for a couple things:

At the same time the entire Jedi order make a huge mistake in not altering its rules to fit Anakins uniqie position. Unlike every Jedi before him Anakin knows his mother. He has strong attachments to her. This makes her a continual distractionm. The smart move on the part of the Jedi would have been to send someone to purchase his mother and then relocated her to somewhere comfortable on say Naboo where Anakin could no longer worry about how her life was.

First, bending the rules for one individual (no matter how unique) is always a bad precedent in a group dependent upon rules and order. It fosters resentment, for one thing. And the beneficiary gets more and more full of himself as time goes by. If anything, they already set Anakin apart too much.

Also, I don't think the Jedi can be blamed entirely for not picking up on what a potential problem Shmi was. They've all been raised without attachments of that nature for generations. Most of them probably don't fully understand the nature of those attachments. Obi-Wan certainly didn't. His "Dreams pass" line was evidence of that. If anything, the error of the Jedi was in sequestering themselves so much from normal people. They lock themselves up in literal ivory towers above Coruscant, going out as diplomats or to dispense justice rather than to help the people directly, and interacting more with the corrupt politicians they should be shunning than the average person who needs help. It's an arrogant isolationism that sets them apart from the common people. Yoda seems to recognize this to some extent, even taking a shot at Mace Windu (and the Jedi in general) for arrogance. It's really this arrogance that sets up their fall. IMO, Yoda will come to fully recognize this, and that's why he chooses such a humble place as Dagobah to hide. It is a form of penance for himself, and it also serves to teach his last student, Luke Skywalker, that humility is an important trait in a Jedi.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

I disagree, you breed more anger, resentment, and the same arrogance you saw so much of among the Jedi when you paint everything with the same broad brush no matter what the situation might be.

Also there is the other simple logic. Shmi bore the force super child as she said without ever getting pregnant. This alone sounds like reason for the Jedi to break their own rules and bring her back if nothing else then to carefully study her.

If I was a Jedi I would be curious to find out if she was either:

1. Lying

2. Being used by someone with her knowing

3. Actually exactly what she said she was.

No matter which of the three above is right the Jedi have no way of knowing. They do not even know if it could happen again for her.

Simple logic says she is a special woman and special care of her would be prudent.

I largely agree with you, Doc, but for a couple things:



First, bending the rules for one individual (no matter how unique) is always a bad precedent in a group dependent upon rules and order. It fosters resentment, for one thing. And the beneficiary gets more and more full of himself as time goes by. If anything, they already set Anakin apart too much.

Also, I don't think the Jedi can be blamed entirely for not picking up on what a potential problem Shmi was. They've all been raised without attachments of that nature for generations. Most of them probably don't fully understand the nature of those attachments. Obi-Wan certainly didn't. His "Dreams pass" line was evidence of that. If anything, the error of the Jedi was in sequestering themselves so much from normal people. They lock themselves up in literal ivory towers above Coruscant, going out as diplomats or to dispense justice rather than to help the people directly, and interacting more with the corrupt politicians they should be shunning than the average person who needs help. It's an arrogant isolationism that sets them apart from the common people. Yoda seems to recognize this to some extent, even taking a shot at Mace Windu (and the Jedi in general) for arrogance. It's really this arrogance that sets up their fall. IMO, Yoda will come to fully recognize this, and that's why he chooses such a humble place as Dagobah to hide. It is a form of penance for himself, and it also serves to teach his last student, Luke Skywalker, that humility is an important trait in a Jedi.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

I disagree, you breed more anger, resentment, and the same arrogance you saw so much of among the Jedi when you paint everything with the same broad brush no matter what the situation might be.

Also there is the other simple logic. Shmi bore the force super child as she said without ever getting pregnant. This alone sounds like reason for the Jedi to break their own rules and bring her back if nothing else then to carefully study her.
...
Simple logic says she is a special woman and special care of her would be prudent.

Just another symptom of their arrogance. She herself is not a Force-user. Therefore, she is unimportant. Also, their Prophecy would make mention of her if she was important (their logical error, not mine).

As for bending the rules... I've been in a few structured organizations, and my viewpoint is based on those. When everyone is treated largely the same, people generally deal with it. They may not like everything about how they are treated, but they have a hard time complaining because everyone else is being given the EXACT same treatment. Once someone is given special treatment, resentment gets in: "Why does HE get that kind of attention when I don't?" Using a broad brush may not make everybody happy, but in my experience, it keeps the peace. Organizations vary almost as much as people, though, and there are those that thrive with a more personalized approach. The Jedi just didn't strike me as one of those. I got the impression that the only way to get perks was to earn them (i.e. Jedi Council members get to use electrum lightsabers if they want them as a mark of their long and impressive service, etc.) or by seniority, which I personally think is a good way of going about it. Besides, in the case of the Jedi, they're not SUPPOSED to want things for themselves, and for most of them, there AREN'T any unusual situations. They've all lived in the exact same environment for as long as they can remember.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

This is part of the problem. You as well as the Jedi council treat their organisation as a military one.

Rules are more important than people.
Tradition more important than people.
Order more important than people.

When Anakin questions Obi-wan in front of other he pretty much gets his head bitten off and he is told that he WILL learn his place.

This is arrogance, this sounds more like some officer in the military talking to a grunt. At no point in that conversation do you sense that a Teacher and Student are talking. Anakin is supposed to look up at Obi-wan like a teacher and a mentor and instead when he asks questions he gets slapped down like some back talking grunt.

That attitude fosters much of the anger and resentment that drives Anakin to dark side.


There is another item that comes to mind that makes this even worse. Remember when Padme and Anakin get to Naboo and they meet with the Queen and her advisors. At one point one of the advisors makes the mistake of callign Anakin a master Jedi. Padme immedialty laughs and says Anakin is not a jedi. She says "he is just a Padawan learner".

How is that for a slap in the face. Right there I realized what kind of a self centered b*tch she was. She might as well have come out and said he was spaceport scum off the bottom of her shoe.

I won't even go into what it must feel like for Anakin to be meeting people who continue to use a boyhood name like "Annie" when they talk to him. I can tell you how I would feel if people had called me Timmy when I was 20 and full of the idea that I was an adult in control of my life.

As for bending the rules... I've been in a few structured organizations, and my viewpoint is based on those.