PCs With Recharging Abilities... Why Not?

[Pbartender]

A dragon's breath or a wardevil's trident ability are probably iconic abilites that do define the monsters. Too powerful to be used at-will, but not very evocative for the feeling of the combat, if they can use it only once per encounter or even per day.

A dragon breathing early and often is iconic. A malebranche forking people early and often is in the same vein. A monster who makes aggressive use of its keynote abilities, leavened with some uncertainty as to how often they can do it, is pretty much what a monster should be.

Aside from the one being the protagonist hero and the other being the antagonist villain, what's the difference between the dragon breathing fire, and a duelist disarming his opponent or an archer shooting three arrows at once or a wizard blowing something up?

PCs, too, have abilities that could be construed as "Too powerful to be used at-will, but not very evocative for the feeling of the combat, if they can use it only once per encounter or even per day."

It comes down to balance...

Each encounter you place in your dungeon is scaled in power to expect that level of PC power.

If random recharge makes it too difficult to predict what power level the PCs are at, then how can we possibly expect it to be predictable enough to be certain that any given monster or combination of monsters make up an encounter that "is scaled in power to expect that level of PC power".

Then, when you run the encounters, you will have some encounters where many PCs roll lots of lucky recharges, and they are able to almost literally spam the encounter and consequently they blow it away easily.

Yep, that's right... And sometimes the PCs roll a half dozen critical hits in a row, or roll a series of near maximum damage rolls, and consequently they blow it away easily.

Then you'll have some encounters where the opposite happens, and lots of bad rolls causes stuff to not recharge nearly as much as you would expect, and the PCs end up having a very difficult time, maybe even TPK (especially if their bad luck happens in, say, the really challenging climactic fight).

Yep, that's right... And sometimes the PCs have the opposite happen, and lots of bad rolls causes weapons and spells to not deal nearly as much damage as you would expect, and the PCs end up having a very difficult time, maybe even TPK (especially if their bad luck happens in, say, the really challenging climactic fight).

And besides... It's not as if the PCs don't have a sack-load of other abilities and actions that they could be taking should they get a run of bad luck with recharge rolls. They won't be standing around with their jaws hanging open with nothing to do -- they'll be fighting and moving and casting spells

I don't think they all apply equally to DMs and monsters: the DM is typically controlling a lot of guys.

Which only proves my point about the "complexity" issue some posters have previously brought up... If the mechanic isn't too complex for a DM to use and keep track of for possibly a half dozen or more monsters at a time, then it isn't too complex for a player to use and keep track of for a single PC.

Having *some* of those guys each round get a clear "use this power whenever its avaialble" option speeds up play without dictating the DM's entire turn.

And see, from my point of view, I don't see anything wrong with the PCs having the same clear "use this power whenever its avaiable" option.

Part of it might be because monsters don't have "daily" powers (they're not going to be around tomorrow, in most cases) but PC's do. Not only that, but they've got five of 'em. So being able to use the trident again is part of how they continue to challenge PC's who use their massive powers on the combat. PC's will also have things like healing potions and magic items, while most monsters won't. So a recharge is one way for a monster to gain a bit of a threat, without decimating the PC's resources. It might tap into their daily powers, or into their magic items and potions, but it probably won't wipe them out. Meanwhile, a PC getting another use of their per-encounter powers might swing things against the monsters so drastically that the challenge is removed from the encounter.

Okay... that certainly makes sense...

I'm looking at it from the other end... Giving PCs recharge ability isn't so much about letting them use Encounter powers more often, but about ensuring that high-end At-Will powers don't get spammed every round -- Which is, ostensibly, the worry that made Trip and Disarm go from at-will action that everyone could use in 3E to once-per-encounter powers that only certain classes cold use.

Myself, I'd like to see recharge mechanics instead of Per-Encounter mechanics for some (most?) per-encounter abilities. But that's one reason why they might avoid doing it as a default.

Hrm... A thought...

A feat that applies to a single encounter ability. It turns the encounter ability into a "Recharge 6" ability. Perhaps at Paragon and Epic levels, additional higher levels of the feat which each increase the recharge range by one point... to "recharge 4 5" and "recharge 3 4 5" respectively.

 

[Rykaar]

I think there'll be recharge for PCs at some point, if not right away.

A possible house rule if you want it now: spend 2 rounds doing nothing, then all your per-encounter powers recharge. (1 round isn't enough seeing how fights will take longer than in 3E.)

Seems a bit odd, since doing nothing still consists of defending yourself. It's not like you're resting.

Based on a previous thread here, I'm leaning toward allowing PC's to spend action points to recharge encounter powers. That takes the guesswork and dice out of it but keeps the tactics firmly in place. I'll allow the gain of one AP per 1 combat, not per 2. Recharging daily powers might be an option too, but the cost will be at least 2 AP.

Oh, and AP can only be spent once per battle, so if you use it for a free attack, you can't buy back a power.

I'm a big fan of decisions over die rolls.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I'm looking at it from the other end... Giving PCs recharge ability isn't so much about letting them use Encounter powers more often, but about ensuring that high-end At-Will powers don't get spammed every round -- Which is, ostensibly, the worry that made Trip and Disarm go from at-will action that everyone could use in 3E to once-per-encounter powers that only certain classes cold use.

I'm in total agreement. And, as I mentioned upthread, I like it better from my "believability" standpoint, too: the chaos of combat represented as a dice roll that lets you re-use some powers (maybe) is pretty fluid in a way that "Once Per Five Minutes" isn't.

A feat that applies to a single encounter ability. It turns the encounter ability into a "Recharge 6" ability. Perhaps at Paragon and Epic levels, additional higher levels of the feat which each increase the recharge range by one point... to "recharge 4 5" and "recharge 3 4 5" respectively.

Sounds fair to me! It's definately an increase in power, but a 17% chance to re-use an ability probably isn't horribly game-breaking. For my games, I might just make powers that strain my believability "recharge 6" automatically. Since most of those will be martial powers, it might help give the martial characters some difference when compared with spellcasters.

 

[Lacyon]

PCs, too, have abilities that could be construed as "Too powerful to be used at-will, but not very evocative for the feeling of the combat, if they can use it only once per encounter or even per day."

The PCs get the chance to be evocative over multiple combats. Most monsters only get the chance once.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea to give PCs recharge abilities, I just see enough tradeoffs that I can see why the designers decided not to. Meanwhile, a lot of those tradeoffs don't apply (or are lessened significantly) on the other side of the screen.

 

[Lacyon]

Sounds fair to me! It's definately an increase in power, but a 17% chance to re-use an ability probably isn't horribly game-breaking. For my games, I might just make powers that strain my believability "recharge 6" automatically. Since most of those will be martial powers, it might help give the martial characters some difference when compared with spellcasters.

Over a 5-round combat, it's more than a 50% chance of returning at least once, not 17%

 

[Ximenes088]

Over a 5-round combat, it's more than a 50% chance of returning at least once, not 17%

Providing the ability is used on the first round, that's a 50% of getting it twice in the fight- which strongly incentivizes using rechargeable powers as early and often as possible. I really don't want to see PCs encouraged to spam a single ability whenever possible. It's evocative for monsters, but that's because monsters are there for one fight. We already have examples of what it feels like for PCs in 3.5's melee encouragement of spamming full attack whenever possible. Fights become exercises in positioning and timing designed to give the PC the best possible chance of spamming the optimal ability.

 

[DreamChaser]

I go by the spirit of "per encounter", which means discrete scenes in which interactions of narrative importance and/or ultraviolence are carried out. If these scenes happen to take place within 5 minutes of each other, well, that's neither here nor there.

See that makes sense...but allowing total regain of all per encounters within a 2 round period within a period of narrative importance seems to blow the spirit out of the water.

DC

 

[Pbartender]

Providing the ability is used on the first round, that's a 50% of getting it twice in the fight- which strongly incentivizes using rechargeable powers as early and often as possible. I really don't want to see PCs encouraged to spam a single ability whenever possible.

Look... PCs already get at-will powers. If the players want, they already can use that single ability every single round, all day long. That's already in place, and it's worse than what I'm suggesting.

In other words, if you aren't worried about players spamming At-Will powers, why are you so worried about the "incentivizication" of a rechargeable ability?

Fights become exercises in positioning and timing designed to give the PC the best possible chance of spamming the optimal ability.

They couldn't possibly, unless the players are exceptionally foolish, for the simple reason that you can't guarantee that a rechargeable ability will be available in any given round. If I make that coin flip, and my "Recharge 6" ability recharges once by the end of the 5 round combat, then I've only used it twice -- that's two standard actions out of five standard, five move and five minor actions, not including free actions and bonus actions granted by allies and the like. I only get to use it the second time, if I happen to be in the proper position and timing to use it, but...

What's the point of timing and positioning for an ability that I only have a 17% chance of using on any given round? Any player worth his salt will wait until after the ability recharges, and then assess the situation to determine whether or not it is advantageous to use the rechargeable ability a second time, or whether some other at-will, encounter or daily power would be more tactically useful.

Besides that... Who's saying that a rechargeable ability is, by default, always going to be the "optimal" ability to use?

 

[Remathilis]

Look... PCs already get at-will powers. If the players want, they already can use that single ability every single round, all day long. That's already in place, and it's worse than what I'm suggesting.

In other words, if you aren't worried about players spamming At-Will powers, why are you so worried about the "incentivizication" of a rechargeable ability?

because they are so much better than at wills. The incentive to use magic missile is that it doesn't run out, but does weak damage. The chance to drop a fireball and recover it every other round? too tempting to pass up...

 

[Ximenes088]

Look... PCs already get at-will powers. If the players want, they already can use that single ability every single round, all day long. That's already in place, and it's worse than what I'm suggesting.

In other words, if you aren't worried about players spamming At-Will powers, why are you so worried about the "incentivizication" of a rechargeable ability?

Because at-will powers are balanced to be spammed. They are not especially strong, and will not unbalance an encounter of unlimited access to them is given. In terms of combat flavor, they are meant to be broken up by use of encounter powers. If encounter powers are spammed, and at-wills are inferior to encounter powers, what do you break up the encounter powers with?

They couldn't possibly, unless the players are exceptionally foolish, for the simple reason that you can't guarantee that a rechargeable ability will be available in any given round. If I make that coin flip, and my "Recharge 6" ability recharges once by the end of the 5 round combat, then I've only used it twice -- that's two standard actions out of five standard, five move and five minor actions, not including free actions and bonus actions granted by allies and the like. I only get to use it the second time, if I happen to be in the proper position and timing to use it, but...

What's the point of timing and positioning for an ability that I only have a 17% chance of using on any given round? Any player worth his salt will wait until after the ability recharges, and then assess the situation to determine whether or not it is advantageous to use the rechargeable ability a second time, or whether some other at-will, encounter or daily power would be more tactically useful.

Besides that... Who's saying that a rechargeable ability is, by default, always going to be the "optimal" ability to use?

It works like this. Presume you're a 1st level PC with 2 at-wills, 1 generally-superior encounter, and 1 daily. The average fight is going to run about 5 rounds. If your encounter power recharges on a 6, every fight's initial round you're going to be firing your encounter power. Every round after that, you have a 1-in-6 chance of failing your "tactical choice" save, because you've recharged and your optimal encounter power is ready again. Therefore, a simple 1-in-6 chance of recharge kills tactical choice on the first round of every fight and 1/6th of the rounds thereafter. That means about a third of every fight turns brain-dead.

This problem is compounded once you start getting more than one encounter power. It is always in your interest to spam even a marginally-superior encounter power over an at-will, because that starts the timer towards you getting a second use of it. If you ever end up with six encounter powers per day, you'll spend the entire fight using nothing but encounter powers. Even if a few of them are sub-optimal on any given round, you only need _one_ useful one to have recharged.

In a larger sense, it reduces the tactical importance of the player to have a random amount of resources going into the fight, especially when the statistically best course of action to take is to lean on that randomness. On average, your best bet is to blow all your encounter powers up front and burn down the target, rather than try to save them for cleanup or battlefield control- because odds are, you'll have something available again at that point.