Ryujin
Legend
Right about the time that TNG ended and those writers were freed-up to move to DS9, if memory serves.
Picard Season 3
- Thread starter Henadic Theologian
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Zardnaar
Legend
Didn't DS9 rate reasonably alright at the time just not as good as TNG which hot its stride later?
I think in thus scenario TNG gets canceled which probably means DS9 doesn't get made or if it does it doesn't benefit from TNGs experiences.
Bit in some weird alt reality would it's ratings early on kept it on the air? TNG would have. Even savaged but DS9 has a way better season 1.
MarkB
Legend
DS9 had some highly critical reactions both before and during its first season from fans who hated the idea of a fixed space station instead of a starship. Even back in the day they were vocal, on social media they'd have been drowning out conversations.
Ruin Explorer
Legend
No. I think you're confusing the "finding its stride" with the main plot arc starting. DS9 found its stride either late in S1 or early in S2, depending, which is before TNG finished.
The writing quality doesn't notably increase from S2 to S3, either, I would suggest. Also AFAIK, there was no exodus of writers from TNG to DS9, though perhaps you could say who if there was.
And the Dominion War arc was planned before TNG finished too (and started to be implemented).
Dominion War - Wikipedia
What did happen around that time was that Piller, who together with Behr, had created DS9, move off on to VOY. I haven't got all the details to hand, but it seems to me like more writers moved from TNG to VOY, than TNG to DS9. I can look into it further if needed. So if we see a change it's that Behr runs things better than Piller (though is possibly more of a dick to the cast, I don't recall exactly).
That's a really off assumption.
Those fans were loud, but they were wildly outnumbered. I was on the internet back then - they were mostly the same people who hated TNG, too, and who were still saying "TOS was better". They would have been crushed on social media because they were much older - like 20+ years older than people who were open to DS9, and thus would have been way worse and way slower at posting and memeing.
I've still got fanzines from back then (I was 15 in 1993 - some of them are near-professional quality too), and DS9 had plenty of people excited about it - way more than VOY did a couple of years later.
Ryujin
Legend
The one that immediately occurs to me is Ron Moore, though that was as supervising producer.
Ronald D. Moore
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Zardnaar
Legend
Yeah but ultimately it comes down to ratings. Did DS9 rate OK back in tge day vs season 1 TNG? DS9 expectations were lower as well vs the main show.
MarkB
Legend
Yeah, but in this little thought experiment it's about whether those ratings would have been impacted if the more outspoken members of fandom had an easier place to speak out.
ART!
Deluxe Unhuman
I think maybe the writers don't understand command: Shaw blames others for his mistakes, and I thought this was a way to make him look lesser-than; but now Riker blames Picard for his own decision (which Picard recommended). Maybe there's a story thread about taking responsibility, and this theme will become stronger as the season progresses.
Ruin Explorer
Legend
He was a major writer for TNG, and he did eventually write a bunch of DS9 stuff, but it was a lot later than that transition point. What is more notable is that when he joined VOY he kind of "bounced off" it because of the writing-room culture. Yet even then, VOY was improving.
I can't shake the feeling that the Riker snap at Picard, was the public excuse to get him off the bridge to find the saboteur.
Benjamin Olson
Hero
Well, episode 4 maintains the streak of the show being much better and more satisfying than prior seasons.
They're really stretching to get the most use out of that Ten Forward set possible. It was one thing using it in episode 3, but they use it in two more ways in episode 4, one of which is so implausible and unnecessary that they had to give an awkward explanation, and it still makes no real sense. I'm just going to forgive it as some sort of cost cutting measure or something where the payoff was clearer in some phase of the script.
They're really stretching to get the most use out of that Ten Forward set possible. It was one thing using it in episode 3, but they use it in two more ways in episode 4, one of which is so implausible and unnecessary that they had to give an awkward explanation, and it still makes no real sense. I'm just going to forgive it as some sort of cost cutting measure or something where the payoff was clearer in some phase of the script.
trappedslider
Legend
I'm actually surprised that no one suggested transferring power from the holo deck to get that extra instead of shunting it from life support.
Also ouch on Picard realizing where and how Jack decided not to be part of his life.
Also ouch on Picard realizing where and how Jack decided not to be part of his life.
Benjamin Olson
Hero
They implied it couldn't be done, but it seems like something any hero engineer in Star Trek history jury-rig in a matter of seconds. Also are holodecks also replicators now? I don't remember it ever being established that food and drink in holodecks work, but many of the extended holodeck scenarios of various Treks make more sense if they do.
In any case having a comparable non-holo location on ship would have made a lot more sense.
I just watched their behind the scenes show, and I know suspect that the choice for having this holodeck recreation of the San Francisco Ten Forward bar may have partly had to do with Captain Shaw's monologue there being an homage to Quint's Indianapolis monologue from Jaws, and an Earth bar with wooden fixtures seemed more suitable for the homage than some sort of spacey, utilitarian star trek ship location like the Next Gen 10 Forward, or whatever. I can respect that visually it was a good location, but the justification for shoehorning it in was paper thin, and just distracted with questions. I suspect that in some version of the script they may have gotten some point out of Jack having been there before, but if so that didn't end up being relevant as the episode ended up as far as I noticed. Just build a damned ship's cantina set.
In any case, I still really liked the episode, but that location decision was pretty dumb, and I suspect ulimately came down to trying to get mileage out of a built set.
In any case, I still really liked the episode, but that location decision was pretty dumb, and I suspect ulimately came down to trying to get mileage out of a built set.
I agree, this episode was, by far, the best ,and hope it goes up from here! Sadly this is leading me to conclude, much as I like the actress, is that the best Rafi is no Rafi - we'll see if the show can fix that.
One big gripe:
Did they REALLY have to make Shaw's beef with Picard be near identical to Sisco's problem with Picard? Granted, there would be PLENTY of officers with the same issue (well as many as are left, it was over 30 years ago) but it came off as so Samey. And if they were going for a call back, for me, it fell flat.
Other than that though, big improvement and great episode.
Benjamin Olson
Hero
I think it was mainly to have a tense and dramatic end to the episode.
Frakes directed episodes 3 and 4 and Stewart and him evidently reworked a lot of their scenes together and tried them various ways. Some of the choices may have drifted a little from what the writers originally intended. While I think generally the results have been phenomenal that particular moment didn't feel earned, and seemed more of a "make the audience worry to make them eager to tune in next week for resolution" move.
Presumably Starfleet is 100% aware of Shaw's "issues" (his starfleet psych profile was even referenced). Putting Seven as his first officer is an "interesting" choice.
Paul Farquhar
Legend
Behind every incompetent Starfleet captain is an incompetent Starfleet admiral.
MarkB
Legend
It's actually canonical, though still awkward. In Voyager they establish that the holodecks are on a separate power grid than the rest of the ship, and there's absolutely, positively no way that power can be transferred from them to anywhere else. Thus, regardless of how resource-starved Voyager gets in the Delta quadrant, they can still have holodeck episodes.
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