I just did and Wikipedia does not say anything about its pre-1977 origins. I'm not arguing, I'm just saying that I would be interested in documented history.
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Parmandur
Book-Friend, he/him
Funny you mention Traveller, Payn, because Marc Miller in an old magazine interview I had read actually made the distinction between older rolwplaying activities as Umbran mentions (murder mystery parties, improv games, model UN, etc.), because he was familiar with those older activities as a political science major when role-playing exercises were big. He compared those to "analog", and credited what Arneson and Gygax did as introducing "digital" because of introducing for the first time resolution mechanics. Miller certainly thought of D&D as inspiring Traveller, and as making the difference between older acting improv activities from a TTRPG as such.
payn
Glory to Marik
Here is a good post on Dicebreaker.
Also, In his 2023 book Monsters, Aliens, and Holes in the Ground, RPG historian Stu Horvath noted, "Traveller is the first RPG that feels like a distinct game, free of D&D's direct influence on its design ...
Parmandur
Book-Friend, he/him
"Stargazer: Let’s start at the beginning. Could you please tell us about how you got into roleplaying games in general? What was the first game you played and what made you want to write your own?"
"Marc Miller: When Dungeons & Dragons came out, I was a wargame designer. In a sense, the fantasy role-playing idea was new, but in another sense, it was a familiar concept. I had done political role-playing exercises in college: model UN and model Organization of American States, and some campaign simulations."
"What struck me (and everyone else) about D&D was the application of numbers to the individual character and role. Gary Gygax’s conversion of role-playing from a touchy-feely analog system to an easy-to-use digital character system was brilliant, even if we couldn’t quite put it into words. D&D literally took over everyone at Game Designers’ Workshop, and after a couple of weeks, we (the designers and owners) had to make an important rule: no D&D during work hours. Nothing else was getting done."
"So we played in the evenings. Based on our experiences, Frank Chadwick designed his Three Musketeers game En Garde! as he digested the idea of fantasy role-playing, and I started working on a science-fiction role-playing game concept that became Traveller."
stargazersworld.com
"Marc Miller: When Dungeons & Dragons came out, I was a wargame designer. In a sense, the fantasy role-playing idea was new, but in another sense, it was a familiar concept. I had done political role-playing exercises in college: model UN and model Organization of American States, and some campaign simulations."
"What struck me (and everyone else) about D&D was the application of numbers to the individual character and role. Gary Gygax’s conversion of role-playing from a touchy-feely analog system to an easy-to-use digital character system was brilliant, even if we couldn’t quite put it into words. D&D literally took over everyone at Game Designers’ Workshop, and after a couple of weeks, we (the designers and owners) had to make an important rule: no D&D during work hours. Nothing else was getting done."
"So we played in the evenings. Based on our experiences, Frank Chadwick designed his Three Musketeers game En Garde! as he digested the idea of fantasy role-playing, and I started working on a science-fiction role-playing game concept that became Traveller."
Interview with Marc Miller – Stargazer's World
stargazersworld.com
Parmandur
Book-Friend, he/him
I mean, the math is distinct, very distinct, but Miller is quite open that he was inspired directly by D&D.
Thomas Shey
Legend
"Direct" is doing some heavy lifting in that sentence.
payn
Glory to Marik
Final note ill make on the subject, but this is exactly the problem with D&D being the be all end all of RPGs.
No. All is D&D. D&D is all.
Marxist. Obviously germanic origins, based on the same ideas as kriegspiel. Which is the same lineage as D&D. Thus, taxonomically it's the same as D&D.
We all know that these these "theater traditions" share the same background as Hollywood film. And it's well documented that Gary Gygax spent considerable time in Hollywood developing the D&D cartoon series. So clearly, these Theatrix games have the same roots as the D&D show. So, really, it's still just D&D in a different form.
5e2024 is D&D. 5e is D&D. 3e is D&D. Pathfinder is D&D. D&D alternatives are D&D. D&D is art. Life imitates art. Life imitates D&D.
D&D is a flat circle.
trappedslider
Legend
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