Pineapple Express: Someone Is Wrong on the Internet?

[Thomas Shey]

When I read The Elusive Shift, my primary takeaway was that the arguments and the errors haven't really changed all that much since the beginning. Really put me off arguing about ... just about all of it.

The problem is that most of the problems have been ones that some people care about quite a lot, and others either minimally or (in a few cases) actively find them a virtue. And when it comes to D&D, some of it is really baked into core design. So around and around it goes. Its the reason a lot of discussion of D&D mechanics became academic exercises to me decades ago (for about a decade I was just downright hostile about it, but at one point I realized it was a literally pointless endeavor because there really were so few things I liked better about D&D that even talking about fixing it or its problems was counterproductive; I was off doing something else anyway, and it was unlikely they were going to change enough of it that was going to change, so what was the point? So I'll occasionally step in when someone seems to be trying to use a wrench as a hammer, but mostly stay out of D&D mechanical discussion any more.

Ironically, the side effect of this over time was that some things bothered me less to the point there's some D&D offshoots I'm willing to play these days, though its more about the overall gestalt of them than particularly liking any individual elements. But either way, I realized it was one of those largely counterproductive things to do, right up there with complaining about fandoms of media I disliked (the media that is, not the fandom)).

 

[RealAlHazred]

It's amazing, though, how vociferous the D&D supporters are. There are better games for what you're trying to do.

Which, since I mentioned better games, let me mention HYBRID, where this issue never even comes up, because of the superior construction of the system! Everything has been carefully considered and the best possible resolution systematized! It is the superior choice for this issue, and all others!

/s
* I think the Hybrid guy took his game offline, which makes me sad. It was clearly unplayable, but also a labor of love, and I always want to support those, even if I hate what eventually develops.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Or someone that agrees to play even though they don't want to, and then tries to sabotage the game saying it is "hilarious" esp with a newb gm. It's like ***ker stop that. I haven't done that, though I did catch myself tearing down D&D to a younger player, who looked up to me as a an elder gamer, and the hurt look in their eyes made me feel about 3" tall.

People ought to understand what they're getting into when looking at D&D (since there are alternatives, albeit ones that take more effort to find games of, but actively badmouthing it is, well, not a good look.

 

[TiQuinn]

It's amazing, though, how vociferous the D&D supporters are. There are better games for what you're trying to do.

There is a familiarity aspect with games that really has a big impact on how people take to different systems. Like, I'm just coming off a year-long-plus Dungeon World game, and while I enjoyed it, I'm feeling that pull back to D&D, at least for a little while. I don't know that I truly ever look at games as truly interchangeable.

 

[Ryujin]

The problem is that most of the problems have been ones that some people care about quite a lot, and others either minimally or (in a few cases) actively find them a virtue. And when it comes to D&D, some of it is really baked into core design. So around and around it goes. Its the reason a lot of discussion of D&D mechanics became academic exercises to me decades ago (for about a decade I was just downright hostile about it, but at one point I realized it was a literally pointless endeavor because there really were so few things I liked better about D&D that even talking about fixing it or its problems was counterproductive; I was off doing something else anyway, and it was unlikely they were going to change enough of it that was going to change, so what was the point? So I'll occasionally step in when someone seems to be trying to use a wrench as a hammer, but mostly stay out of D&D mechanical discussion any more.

Ironically, the side effect of this over time was that some things bothered me less to the point there's some D&D offshoots I'm willing to play these days, though its more about the overall gestalt of them than particularly liking any individual elements. But either way, I realized it was one of those largely counterproductive things to do, right up there with complaining about fandoms of media I disliked (the media that is, not the fandom)).

Admittedly way back when, in the '70s, it took me more than a little while to wrap my head around the fact that we were playing a game, not a simulation.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Admittedly way back when, in the '70s, it took me more than a little while to wrap my head around the fact that we were playing a game, not a simulation.

Well wanting a simulation is a perfectly legitimate desire; there's sharp limits as to how much of that you're going to get at best (and understanding that is key to understanding what is and isn't possible) but you also have to understand even during the days when the simulation-lean was strongest, the D&D sphere was never where you were going to get that really; it had too much abstraction (and most of it was of convenience) for that to really work (and that was before you were deciding what you were trying to simulate; if you had two different people, one wanting to simulation sword-and-sorcery and one high fantasy, even though there's some overlap, they weren't going to really find the same game satisfactory if they were hard core about it).

At the time it was how very far D&D was off simulation that was partly what initially put me off, and had me in the RQ sphere for many years (not that RQ was exactly perfect about it, but its abstractions tended to operate at a much different level; the representative parts could usually be looked at hard and still tell you something about what was going on from moment to moment). But it was really only a piece of the problem as I realized over time, and even when I stopped caring as much about simulation there just wasn't much there for me to like.

But you know what? What I care about has nothing to do with what deep fans of the game do (or should) care about. And until I internalized that it left my attitude toward it, well, pretty bad (not just in being negative, but in how and how often I felt the need to express that and with what fervor).

 

[dragoner]

People ought to understand what they're getting into when looking at D&D (since there are alternatives, albeit ones that take more effort to find games of, but actively badmouthing it is, well, not a good look.

That is why I stopped, the internet has a way of cultivating bad habits that don't play well in real life. We all know what D&D is, play it or don't. Not that I didn't hear people complain back in '79, sort of a time honored tradition.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

The noise sucks the joy from things.

Just started playing gears 5 online a little. I suck and suck worse if it’s beers and gears. But after a delay and avoiding the online community I realized it’s fun to me and the negative opinions almost tricked me.

Same as D&D…I was starting to be in a 5e slump but as soon as I tuned out the dissatisfied ruminators I liked it just as well as I did before.

Playing and doing is better than discussion for motivation and fun

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Sometimes, discussions about the hobby’s community are slightly puzzling to me.

I got started playing AD&D in 1977 in Aurora, CO, playing with other kids. Just a couple years later, I was in Manhattan, KS, with (unbeknownst to me) a completely different type of gaming community- still mostly kids, but also more college stimulants and members of the Army. In Manhattan, I got exposed to TFT/ITL, Traveller, and a bunch of board games like Starfire, Star Fleet Battles, and a bunch of other Metagaming & AH stuff.

Even when shopping in the hobby stores in cities like Topeka, Wichita, Lawrence and KC, it wasn’t until 1982 in Dallas/Fort Worth that I actually saw another major RPG in stores or people who played them. And even so, the community was small & insular.

And it was another 8 years before I got seriously involved in playing more than a half-dozen systems, largely because of “Henchworld” in Austin, TX. Even though we played a lot of systems, discussions were rarely about the strengths & weaknesses, just what someone wanted to run next and why.

So the big raging discussions about the hobby itself were pretty alien to me until I joined ENWorld!

And to be fair, I still don’t see much in-depth discussion about the merits of one game or system over another in meatspace. My longest running game groups (which overlapped) rarely considered playing anything beyond D&D. (And non-D&D games didn’t last long.)

 

[Ryujin]

Sometimes, discussions about the hobby’s community are slightly puzzling to me.

I got started playing AD&D in 1977 in Aurora, CO, playing with other kids. Just a couple years later, I was in Manhattan, KS, with (unbeknownst to me) a completely different type of gaming community- still mostly kids, but also more college stimulants and members of the Army. In Manhattan, I got exposed to TFT/ITL, Traveller, and a bunch of board games like Starfire, Star Fleet Battles, and a bunch of other Metagaming & AH stuff.

Even when shopping in the hobby stores in cities like Topeka, Wichita, Lawrence and KC, it wasn’t until 1982 in Dallas/Fort Worth that I actually saw another major RPG in stores or people who played them. And even so, the community was small & insular.

And it was another 8 years before I got seriously involved in playing more than a half-dozen systems, largely because of “Henchworld” in Austin, TX. Even though we played a lot of systems, discussions were rarely about the strengths & weaknesses, just what someone wanted to run next and why.

So the big raging discussions about the hobby itself were pretty alien to me until I joined ENWorld!

And to be fair, I still don’t see much in-depth discussion about the merits of one game or system over another in meatspace. My longest running game groups (which overlapped) rarely considered playing anything beyond D&D. (And non-D&D games didn’t last long.)

I must have just been lucky. Very early on, in high school, I was exposed to several different games. Basic D&D was followed very quickly by AD&D, but also Gamma World, Traveller, and Space Opera. As we were officially the "War Gaming Club" I was also exposed to many board games. Anything from Chess, that I completely suck at, to Air War, which I was pretty good at.

There was also a WWI air combat simulation game, the name of which escapes me, that had a mechanic for pilot experience. I was OK with it, but not great, and a couple of the regular players liked to use me for target practice to advance their pilot experience. Until, that is, I discovered the Spad and fighting against German aircraft on the vertical, instead of the horizontal. Frustrated the hell out of them