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Plain ol' Fighters: Likes & Dislikes?
- Thread starter Steverooo
- Start date
Tinker Gnome
Explorer
Like: Lots of feats, which means you have lots of options for combat. I have a sixth level Fighter who Dual Wields and he is a blast to play. 
Dislike: Small skill list and a low amount of skillpoints lead to me not being able to do much but fight.
Dislike: Small skill list and a low amount of skillpoints lead to me not being able to do much but fight.
Agree, on all of that! 4 skill points/level is the least that *I* think ANY class should have... and Fighters have enough skills to absorb four, without being "maxed out on everything"!
Also, I find it strange that Fighters can't take Profession (Bodyguard), for instance. That is just plain weird!
Also, the men to rush to the moathouse, or merlons, can't take Knowledge (Architecture & Engineering) as a class skill. "To the what, Sir?" Also, the tacticians who study past battles can't take Knowledge (History)? The guys who guard the town, and fight off the Humanoids can't take Knowledge (Local), which covers both? And the higher-level types can't take Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty)? Howzcome?
Older Fighters tended to become Bards, anyway. Seems like this would make a better lead-in.
Higher-level Fighter Feats, as an incentive to stay in the class were introduced in PHB II, so I assume that base is covered. No mo' need be said, there, I guess.
Another bother is that one Fighter is much like another. Even with different weapons & combat styles, this is still pretty much true. Some new Fighter Feats to add to saving throws would also be nice. Improved Lightning Reflexes & Improved Iron Will, which require the un-Improved versions as pre-requisites, and add a total of +6 to the roll (turning a "Bad" save into a "Good" one) as Fighter Feats would allow some customization, at the expense of fighting prowess (especially if the un-Improved versions aren't ighter Feats)!
Also, it might be nice to see some alternate "Fighter Starting Packages", in which a Fighter lost Medium & Heavy Armour Proficiencies, and Tower Shield Proficiency (which would all become Fighter Bonus Feats), and instead gained, for instance:
Horseman Starter Package:...................Polearmsman's Starter Package:
Mounted Combat (Requires 1+ Ranks of Ride)....Two-Weapon Fighting
Mounted Archery.........................................Weapon Specialization (Polearm of choice)
Point Blank Shot..........................................Medium Armour Proficiency
Scout Starter Package:
You are trained in Alertness, Stealth, & Wilderness Survival, rather than Medium & Heavy Armours & Tower Shields.
Benefits: Hide, Knowledge (Nature), Listen, Move Silently, Spot, & Survival become Class Skills, for you.
Normal: The listed Skills are Cross-Class Skills for Fighters and most other classes.
Special: A Fighter may select this Feat as a Starting Package, instead of "Standard Warrior Training" (which teaches Medium & Heavy Armor Proficiencies & Tower Shield Proficiency). Copyright 2006 by SteveC.
(Just for instance).
You could have starter packages for bowmen, crossbowmen, slingers, siege artillerists, miner/sappers, etc., etc., ad nauseum.
Perhaps even trade a Feat for any TWO Cross-Class skills becoming Class Skills. For instance:
Sentinel (General Feat)
You are trained at keeping watch.
Benefits: Listen & Spot become Class Skills, for you.
Normal: Listen & Spot are Cross-Class Skills for Fighters and most other classes.
Special: A Fighter may select this Feat as one of his Bonus Feats. Copyright 2006 by SteveC.
You could also add others, like "Healer" or "Medic", etc.
Medic (General Feat)
You are trained in the arts of battle medicine.
Benefits: Heal & Profession (Herbalist) become Class Skills, for you.
Normal: Heal & Profession (Herbalist) are Cross-Class Skills for Fighters and most other classes.
Special: A Fighter may select this Feat as one of his Bonus Feats. Copyright 2006 by SteveC.
Also, I find it strange that Fighters can't take Profession (Bodyguard), for instance. That is just plain weird!
Also, the men to rush to the moathouse, or merlons, can't take Knowledge (Architecture & Engineering) as a class skill. "To the what, Sir?"
Also, the tacticians who study past battles can't take Knowledge (History)? The guys who guard the town, and fight off the Humanoids can't take Knowledge (Local), which covers both? And the higher-level types can't take Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty)? Howzcome?Older Fighters tended to become Bards, anyway. Seems like this would make a better lead-in.
Higher-level Fighter Feats, as an incentive to stay in the class were introduced in PHB II, so I assume that base is covered. No mo' need be said, there, I guess.
Another bother is that one Fighter is much like another. Even with different weapons & combat styles, this is still pretty much true. Some new Fighter Feats to add to saving throws would also be nice. Improved Lightning Reflexes & Improved Iron Will, which require the un-Improved versions as pre-requisites, and add a total of +6 to the roll (turning a "Bad" save into a "Good" one) as Fighter Feats would allow some customization, at the expense of fighting prowess (especially if the un-Improved versions aren't ighter Feats)!
Also, it might be nice to see some alternate "Fighter Starting Packages", in which a Fighter lost Medium & Heavy Armour Proficiencies, and Tower Shield Proficiency (which would all become Fighter Bonus Feats), and instead gained, for instance:
Horseman Starter Package:...................Polearmsman's Starter Package:
Mounted Combat (Requires 1+ Ranks of Ride)....Two-Weapon Fighting
Mounted Archery.........................................Weapon Specialization (Polearm of choice)
Point Blank Shot..........................................Medium Armour Proficiency
Scout Starter Package:
You are trained in Alertness, Stealth, & Wilderness Survival, rather than Medium & Heavy Armours & Tower Shields.
Benefits: Hide, Knowledge (Nature), Listen, Move Silently, Spot, & Survival become Class Skills, for you.
Normal: The listed Skills are Cross-Class Skills for Fighters and most other classes.
Special: A Fighter may select this Feat as a Starting Package, instead of "Standard Warrior Training" (which teaches Medium & Heavy Armor Proficiencies & Tower Shield Proficiency). Copyright 2006 by SteveC.
(Just for instance).
You could have starter packages for bowmen, crossbowmen, slingers, siege artillerists, miner/sappers, etc., etc., ad nauseum.
Perhaps even trade a Feat for any TWO Cross-Class skills becoming Class Skills. For instance:
Sentinel (General Feat)
You are trained at keeping watch.
Benefits: Listen & Spot become Class Skills, for you.
Normal: Listen & Spot are Cross-Class Skills for Fighters and most other classes.
Special: A Fighter may select this Feat as one of his Bonus Feats. Copyright 2006 by SteveC.
You could also add others, like "Healer" or "Medic", etc.
Medic (General Feat)
You are trained in the arts of battle medicine.
Benefits: Heal & Profession (Herbalist) become Class Skills, for you.
Normal: Heal & Profession (Herbalist) are Cross-Class Skills for Fighters and most other classes.
Special: A Fighter may select this Feat as one of his Bonus Feats. Copyright 2006 by SteveC.
Last edited:
green slime
First Post
Well, apart from the lack of suitable skills, lack of skill points, and sorely missing high quality high level feats (slightly fixed in PHBII), I still think Fighters have severely gotten the shaft:
They have more "dead levels" than any other class. It is these dead levels IMO that make it absolutely pointless (or extremely frustrating) to play a straight fighter:
5th, 7th, 11th, 13th, 17th, & 19th are levels where the fighter gets:
+1 BAB, +1d10 hp, +2 (+Int) skill points, and that is it. No bonus to saves. No bonus feat. Nothing.
30% of the 20th level fighter's career.
Then look to see how many "dead levels" a typical fighter-type PrC has...
Then there is certain RPG-DM attitude they have to combat against as well:
I've seen DM's award other character's XP for using skills outside of combat. Do you think those DM's award fighter's more XP than the other character's for a fight? What is the fighter expected to do to earn XP when not in combat? Jump? The fighter can only fight. Its what he does, he can't do anything else whatsoever.
So low level fighter leaps into every battle, contributes hughly by obsorbing punishment and actually doing the slaying while mr Wiz holds back (just in case). Everyone gets XP. No complaints. Wiz casts spell X to determine Y/solve problem S, whatever. Wiz gets XP. Maybe the fighter should have tried an untrained Knowledge (arcana) check any way... Its about just as much good as the xbow bolts the wiz tickles the monsters with.
Then people wonder what to do when the fighter gets himself killed bravely protecting his "party", and he is further penalised XP, when raised. I've seen this so many times I could cry.
Its so obvious, that in some games, people who play fighters should be made to wear Dunce caps. Maybe then the DM would wake up.
They have more "dead levels" than any other class. It is these dead levels IMO that make it absolutely pointless (or extremely frustrating) to play a straight fighter:
5th, 7th, 11th, 13th, 17th, & 19th are levels where the fighter gets:
+1 BAB, +1d10 hp, +2 (+Int) skill points, and that is it. No bonus to saves. No bonus feat. Nothing.
30% of the 20th level fighter's career.
Then look to see how many "dead levels" a typical fighter-type PrC has...
Then there is certain RPG-DM attitude they have to combat against as well:
I've seen DM's award other character's XP for using skills outside of combat. Do you think those DM's award fighter's more XP than the other character's for a fight? What is the fighter expected to do to earn XP when not in combat? Jump? The fighter can only fight. Its what he does, he can't do anything else whatsoever.
So low level fighter leaps into every battle, contributes hughly by obsorbing punishment and actually doing the slaying while mr Wiz holds back (just in case). Everyone gets XP. No complaints. Wiz casts spell X to determine Y/solve problem S, whatever. Wiz gets XP. Maybe the fighter should have tried an untrained Knowledge (arcana) check any way... Its about just as much good as the xbow bolts the wiz tickles the monsters with.
Then people wonder what to do when the fighter gets himself killed bravely protecting his "party", and he is further penalised XP, when raised. I've seen this so many times I could cry.
Its so obvious, that in some games, people who play fighters should be made to wear Dunce caps. Maybe then the DM would wake up.
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JVisgaitis
Explorer
Likes:
-Tons of Feats
Dislikes:
-Low skill points
-Can't take Profession as a class skill (huh?)
-No unique abilities that make them stand out from other classes. The only unique ability that Figher's have is Weapon Specialization which really isn't that flavorful. Fighters should get better ways to attack and defend themselves in combat which aren't available to other classes.
-Tons of Feats
Dislikes:
-Low skill points
-Can't take Profession as a class skill (huh?)
-No unique abilities that make them stand out from other classes. The only unique ability that Figher's have is Weapon Specialization which really isn't that flavorful. Fighters should get better ways to attack and defend themselves in combat which aren't available to other classes.
Rodrigo Istalindir
Explorer
My only real beef isn't the number of skill points, it's the limited class skill list. A 14-Int fighter has 4 pts a level (5 if human), which is ok for a non-skill based class. But they ought to have Spot, Listen, Balance, and Tumble as class skills, too.
OTOH, I've found Ftr/Rog to be a popular combo, so maybe that's a good enough fix as is.
OTOH, I've found Ftr/Rog to be a popular combo, so maybe that's a good enough fix as is.
What do I like?
Fighters are very customizable - simple design with intricate potential. They are also still very effective in their niche and do a good job of representing the "fighting man".
What don't I like?
Class abilities don't scale like those of other classes. A high-level rogue can get Still Mind, or Improved Evasion. A high-level wizard gets access to 9th level spells. A high-level druid can wildshape into an elemental. A high-level fighter gets... another feat. Oftentimes, it is a feat that could have been taken at 1st level. This makes fighters much more dependent on magic at high levels than other classes.
I realize that there is a cumulative effect that comes into play. Another +1 bonus on top of your previous five +1 bonuses is more effective than it may seem, but IMHO it doesn't really compare to what other classes are getting.
Fighters are very customizable - simple design with intricate potential. They are also still very effective in their niche and do a good job of representing the "fighting man".
What don't I like?
Class abilities don't scale like those of other classes. A high-level rogue can get Still Mind, or Improved Evasion. A high-level wizard gets access to 9th level spells. A high-level druid can wildshape into an elemental. A high-level fighter gets... another feat. Oftentimes, it is a feat that could have been taken at 1st level. This makes fighters much more dependent on magic at high levels than other classes.
I realize that there is a cumulative effect that comes into play. Another +1 bonus on top of your previous five +1 bonuses is more effective than it may seem, but IMHO it doesn't really compare to what other classes are getting.
el-remmen
Moderator Emeritus
Not much to dislike.
Ain't nothing wrong with the good ole-fashioned fighter.
Only changes I have made was the inclusion of competitive defense bonus to AC (something all classes get in my game to one degree or another) and the inclusion of a few extra class skills (intimidate and knowledge (tactics)).
Otherwise, it's perfect!
Ain't nothing wrong with the good ole-fashioned fighter.
Only changes I have made was the inclusion of competitive defense bonus to AC (something all classes get in my game to one degree or another) and the inclusion of a few extra class skills (intimidate and knowledge (tactics)).
Otherwise, it's perfect!
The_Gneech
Explorer
Yeah, the lack of class skills and skill points is the main thing that keeps me from playing fighters more often. Wandering mercenaries should be able to pick up new languages, weaponcraft and tactics, and so on at the very least.
Int is rarely a priority for fighters anyway; low Int combined with low skill points combined with a paucity of class skills makes fighters completely ineffective at things like Spot and Search (both of which are things you might often want to do on a battlefield). Jump and Ride are class skills, but generally you have enough skill points to do one or the other, but not both.
Fighters don't need to be the skill monkeys that rangers are, but it would be nice if they weren't quite so limited as they are now. I mean c'mon, barbarians(!) are more skilled than fighters are. WTF!
-The Gneech
Int is rarely a priority for fighters anyway; low Int combined with low skill points combined with a paucity of class skills makes fighters completely ineffective at things like Spot and Search (both of which are things you might often want to do on a battlefield). Jump and Ride are class skills, but generally you have enough skill points to do one or the other, but not both.
Fighters don't need to be the skill monkeys that rangers are, but it would be nice if they weren't quite so limited as they are now. I mean c'mon, barbarians(!) are more skilled than fighters are. WTF!
-The Gneech
