D&D 5E Please un-NERF Magic Items in 5e

[StAlda]

Remember when finding a Girdle of Frost Giant Strength brought a tear to your eye from the exictement? Now I get a +2 to Athletics and once a day I get to be a badass? Well at least I can sell it for some cash....

Wand of Wonder (gone until recently) is a shadow of itself. Every low level magic-user was given a WoW in our games. Just for the shear entertainment (and also to make them a little useful after they were out of spells).

Ring of Protection...you know, just don't even talk to me.....

 

[Infiniti2000]

And remember when you got caught without your items and it was so totally lame we couldn't hear your crying over the bad guys' laughter? A DM still has the ability to create any items he wants, but in general I think that the Nerfing of magical items was one of the best changes made ot the game.

 

[StAlda]

And remember when you got caught without your items and it was so totally lame we couldn't hear your crying over the bad guys' laughter? A DM still has the ability to create any items he wants, but in general I think that the Nerfing of magical items was one of the best changes made ot the game.

I didn't say make the characters useless without them or dependent on them. I smell troll.

 

[Number48]

I don't want characters to utterly depend on magic items, but I want magic items to be very, well, magical. They should do fantastic things, even if those things don't seem like much rules-wise. I once had a group acquire a wand in a deal of trading magic items with an NPC that became a favorite of theirs. Simply put, whatever the wand touched turned black. There were some limits on size and the color would wear off after some time depending on the item but you could count on steel or stone lasting a day or two and cloak would last months. Mechanically, it was a 3E rod that cast Prestidigitation, a zero-level spell, and even then had a severe limitation in how it cast Prestidigitation. (For those who don't recall, in 3E a rod can cast a spell over and over with no charges, like an infinite wand). It was definitely seen as a better item than the +2 sword because you could do things with the blackwand. The sword was just, well, a sword.

 

[Aenghus]

Remember when having certain magic items was more important than anything else on your character sheet. One belt of giant strength in a party of fighters of average strength and the person who gets the belt totally outclasses the others in combat.

The combination of overpowered magic items and favouritism, intentional or not, is lethal to gaming groups.

Now, magic items can definitely be more powerful than they were at the start of 4e, but I don't want them to ever go back to what the highpoint was in 1e and 2e. Personally, I would prefer them to avoid granting numeric bonuses that modify the character sheet, but I doubt that'll happen.

 

[Henry]

I tend to have the same reaction. Admittedly, I hear that Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium did help rectify this and put some of the "wow" back into magic items, but Magic Items in older editions, ideally due to rarity, did have some game-bending (or game-breaking) effects and cause a lot of excitement around the table because of it.

The giant strength and ogre power items are good examples -- In storytelling and myth, the weakling or normal guy gets the strength boosting item and becomes a powerhouse -- in game terms, he just got his strength raise from 10 to 12 -- to recall a phrase, "meh." However, it was nigh-impossible to just MAKE one of those, it needed to be found, and chances are you'd find one or two per party, per campaign.

4E's item rarity system hearkens back to "only one or two per whole campaign", so assuming they keep the rarity idea, I think it's time to reintroduce items that give a flat score again as rare items:

Those gauntlets of Giant strength? STR 18, baby!
Girdle(Belt, pfft!) of Giant STR? 24, YAHOO!

Ring of Protection? The lesser one might give you that measly +1 or +2 to AC, but the GREATER Ring of Protection? +3 to AC, and turn a hit into a miss 1/day! (or a normal hit in case of a crit).

 

[SensoryThought]

I'm a big fan of iconic magic weapons and having a sword that does +1d6 damage to dragons once per day is uninspiring.

I've house ruled magic items more powerful in my 4e game but give out a lot less permanents than recommended (but still give out lots of consumables).

 

[FireLance]

I think the really powerful items ought to come with a level adjustment for the character. You could probably get by with (say) +1 armor being LA +0 and a +3 weapon being LA +1, but if you want greater granularity, even something like a +1 weapon could be LA +1/3.

So yes, if you're kitted out with a +3 weapon, +3 armor, a +3 amulet of protection, a girdle of giant strength and boots of speed, you will walk over equal level encounters - because you're punching at +5 above what your level actually is. If the DM wants to present you with a "standard" level of challenge, he should actually be looking at monsters 5 levels or so higher than you are.

 

[Number48]

Now, magic items can definitely be more powerful than they were at the start of 4e, but I don't want them to ever go back to what the highpoint was in 1e and 2e. Personally, I would prefer them to avoid granting numeric bonuses that modify the character sheet, but I doubt that'll happen.

Now, see, I DON'T want magic items to be powerful. I want them to be wonderful. I want them to need to be used in creative ways to get a real benefit from them. Another item the group got in the trade I mentioned above was a rat skull. Touch it to a rat and you can see through its eyes for up to 5 minutes. Is that more powerful or weaker than the blackwand? Who knows, who cares. I want items that are so interesting in their uses that it's really hard to quantify them. If you just assign a gp value to them, then look at the chart, a little bit of wonder dies.

 

[Henry]

I didn't say make the characters useless without them or dependent on them. I smell troll.

Nah, Infiniti's been around a while -- he just has a different idea on the old style of magic items, is all.

And remember when you got caught without your items and it was so totally lame we couldn't hear your crying over the bad guys' laughter? A DM still has the ability to create any items he wants, but in general I think that the Nerfing of magical items was one of the best changes made ot the game.

On the other hand, IMO the rarity system, if expanded on, could offer an answer between the DM who doesn't want such items at his table, and the one who does. Me, I had many good experiences with the genuine thrill that a game-bending magic item gave, as long as they were rare -- in the end, Over the past ten years I've had far more memorable stories to recall over a player using an awesome magic item than I have had with a character's particular power or special ability. My players have enjoyed retelling about the rogue with the magic dagger that transforms into a tattoo and back for concealed weaponry, or the one-shot item that gave someone the strength of a god for 1 minute, but was of no use to them ever again, or the Wand of Wonder cribbed from 1E that created an invisible marching band as a wall of force for 5 rounds, or the gem that was a phylactery for a powerful lich, BUT allowed the wizard to prepare 9 more levels of spells than normal? (Boy, there was a lot of in-party fighting on that one.)

And none of those belong in your game, if you want them -- and they'd be impossible for PCs to make, only find, with DM discretion.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

The more fantastic magic items are, the less they affect game balance.
bland +2 swords, everyone can create and needs to be replaced soon: a tool.
a chain shirt +3 that stacks with your armor, but you will only find only once: exciting.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

I miss the table for generating random magic items. Sure it brought up a bunch of useless stuff now and then, but I'd take it any day over 'give me your wish list and I'll put it into the dungeon'.

 

[StAlda]

There is no arguement that some 1e/2e/3e magic items were too powerful(game breaking powerful), ok so nerf them. But the example I gave, +1 or 2 to AC, does that really make the character too powerful or useless when the ring is lost? I think not, but it does make you excited to get it. In the 4e design a wand of fireballs is less needed because of at-wills and encounters, so I can see them and similar items being changed. Because really, after a fight, why do we search the bodies and room, WE ARE LOOKING FOR MAGIC! (or money or something unique)

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I don´t want to find 100s of gold in each encounter... that makes no sense...

 

[Rampant]

Well that's the problem isn't it?

3e and 4e nerfed magic items because they needed to fit within the framework of the character's normal progression.

If you don't assume everyone is going to be completely kitted out then you can make them more potent.

It depends on whether you have items as inside or outside the standard character progression.

 

[StAlda]

Grant it, this is just my opinion, but magic items should have never been considered part of character progression.

Although it may have a difficult implemantation, Firelance may have something. A 5th level fighter with a +3 sword is considered a 6th level when determining party strength. So on a character sheet you would have class level and character level. If you run a high magic campaign, a fifth (class) level party would be appropriate in a 7-9th level adventure. I can see that.

 

[steeldragons]

I'm with the OP...but I don't know if "unnerfing" is the right term.

It sounds, and correct me if I'm wrong, that it's not a matter of having "powerful or useless" items...but items that "feel" magical...the "wondrous", the "fantastic"...again.

Yes, sure. We were all in campaigns in the pre-3e days where you stocked your character up with a bajillion magic items (a BAJILLION, I tell you!) that did everything from give you a place to sleep to make you un-hit-able to taking out Orcus in one shot.

The party that had 3 fighters and a ranger and ALL of them had a flaming sword and plate +3.

But that, from what I read/have heard, isn't what is "missing" from magic items in post-3e games.

There's a place for +1 swords (how else are you going to hit gargoyles or wraiths! ). And everyone, I hope, remembers that first "aw cool!" moment when your piddly level 2 fighter got his first magic weapon...or a 2nd level wizard got their first ring or cloak of protection (FINALLY! I'm not automatically getting hit by EVERything!)

Yes, they became a part of what made your character cool...but they weren't entirely your defining character. A powergamer is a powergamer in any edition and obviously will find/take advantage when they can. That's up to the DM to control/limit...if possible. It's not really the kind of thing that rules can provide.

I think, with the whole introduction of "crafting items" and the "magic wal-mart at the next town" are what did the most harm to magic items "feeling" magic.

There was no "wonder" anymore. There was no (or severely limited/eroded) "aw cool". Nothing the DM could throw at the PCs that they hadn't seen before. There was just "This is what I want. How many gp?"

Let alone the "entitlement" of what I understand to be 4e's system of a "wish list" or automatic "parcels" of loot that are player requested.

Get out into the world and try to find what you want! Research, rumors, ancient legends...and if/when you are high enough level to craft your own...actually getting out to find the materials. Everything shouldn't be down at "Mortimer's Magic Emporium-orium-orium! Flash for cash, guaranteed! If it's not Mortimer's, it just ain't magic."

I am all for magic items returning to that magical feel.

And yes, some might have "AMAAAAAzING COSMIC POWER!!!!" and some might be [metaphorically] "teeeeeeny tiny living space." Another thing that it is up to the DM of their particular group to..."police" is not the right term...but adjudicate, I suppose.

Why begrudge the character who got the girdle of giant strength? Get some cool stuff of your own. "He has a 24 strength and I don't" is just whining to my ears. It's not about "balance." It's about being jealous...and, <duck and cover for the onslaught> being childish. It's a game, a game of magical heroes in a magical heroes' world.

They should be rare. They should not amount to the defining qualities of a character. But nor should they be something that you can duplicate by talking ABZ feats or just going up in level. Nor should they be something that, if they get taken away/stolen/lost/used up...the character just becomes "nothing."

I dunno where I'm going exactly with this...but yes, make magic items feel magical again.

Have fun and happy gaming.
--Steel Dragons

 

[ExploderWizard]

And remember when you got caught without your items and it was so totally lame we couldn't hear your crying over the bad guys' laughter? A DM still has the ability to create any items he wants, but in general I think that the Nerfing of magical items was one of the best changes made ot the game.

Don't make magic items expected or required gear and the problem is solved.

 

[drothgery]

Don't make magic items expected or required gear and the problem is solved.

Only if magic items are far less common than they've been in any edition of D&D, ever (save for Dark Sun and house-ruled low-magic item games). Which would be a game far more 'not D&D' to me than one that ditched, say, Vancian casting.

 

[harlokin]

I couldn't agree less with the OP.

The focus should be on the character's abilities, not a generic Belt of Giant Strength which doubles his strength.

No creatures should require a spoon of +1 to hurt it.

I want magic items to be rare, named, with histories (akin to artefacts).