D&D 5E [Poll] Cleric Satisfaction Survey

[DonT]

My main complaints about the Cleric are as they have been since 3E and losing the 2E Priest class:
1) Too much access to heavy armor -- I get that the Cleric is supposed to be militant, and I appreciate that WotC removed heavy armor as default for Clerics in 5E. I still would have limited access to heavy armor to the War domain. I would even have considered the base class only having light armor, with a good number of domains getting medium (I don't see knowledge, especially, having more than light)

1a) Why the heck does the Life domain get access to heavy armor? With my above change, I question whether they should even have medium armor. Next to Knowledge or Tempest/Weather/Sea (whoops, fell overboard), I can't think of any domain that less deserves military training than Life.



3) Too many damaging spells -- Wizards don't get healing. Everyone knows that. Well, Clerics don't need as many damaging spells. Yes, they've always had a few. I'm not saying to completely remove them. They just don't need any damaging cantrips and could afford to have the runt's pick on the others, excepting a few signature spells.
.

I strongly disagree with both of these. As it is, Tempest Clerics are my favorite characters to play. If you take away their heavy armor, martial weapons, and damaging spells, then I will lose all interest in playing them. That does not make them as good in melee as a Paladin or as good at blasting as a Sorcerer. But it is that particular combination that I find appealing.

 

[Ath'kethin]

The problem with clerics is the same as the problem with wizards in 5e, and several other have touched on the reason why: for the most part, they all have access to the same spells, so every single cleric will use the same spells. Whether you are a "Knowledge" cleric or a "War" cleric or a "Medium Spicy Salsa" cleric, the best spells are the same. So that's what everybody takes. There is nothing to encourage thinking differently, or finding other ways to overcome challenges.

In theory, the cleric is slightly better than the wizard since their spell selection and general abilities are a bit more rounded, but they have the same problems.

 

[Aldarc]

I'm mostly satisfied. I find their spell casting to be somewhat boring and lackluster. There are usually several must have go-to spells for party support or even offense that you constantly keep in your back pocket resulting in you never really casting the others. Doubly so if these spells require concentration. I don't see a lot of use for the domain spells because they often conflict with the party-wide concentration buffs (e.g. bless) or required standard support spells (e.g. Healing Word). It would also have been nice if the cleric had cantrips for weapon attacks that produced some minor healing or buffs (as per 4E).

 

[Mercule]

I strongly disagree with both of these. As it is, Tempest Clerics are my favorite characters to play. If you take away their heavy armor, martial weapons, and damaging spells, then I will lose all interest in playing them. That does not make them as good in melee as a Paladin or as good at blasting as a Sorcerer. But it is that particular combination that I find appealing.

I had to go look it up. I did not actually realize that Tempest got heavy armor and martial weapon proficiency. I pulled it out as something I just assumed did not have those (like Knowledge and Trickery -- which I just went back and checked). I'm still not able to fully wrap my mind around how Tempest justifies heavy armor and martial weapons (OK, maybe martial weapons, depending on take).

In no way am I knocking your enjoyment of the way the abilities come together. I just do not understand how that makes sense, thematically.

Which gets back to my core issue: Clerics are just too bloody martial, over all.

 

[Thurmas]

My main complaints about the Cleric are as they have been since 3E and losing the 2E Priest class:
1) Too much access to heavy armor -- I get that the Cleric is supposed to be militant, and I appreciate that WotC removed heavy armor as default for Clerics in 5E. I still would have limited access to heavy armor to the War domain. I would even have considered the base class only having light armor, with a good number of domains getting medium (I don't see knowledge, especially, having more than light)

1a) Why the heck does the Life domain get access to heavy armor? With my above change, I question whether they should even have medium armor. Next to Knowledge or Tempest/Weather/Sea (whoops, fell overboard), I can't think of any domain that less deserves military training than Life.

2) Everyone turns undead -- This ability has its roots in the OD&D/AD&D patterning the Cleric off the Knights Templar; undead recoil from the cross, so they recoil from the Cleric's holy symbol. Having broken that mold, I see no reason for "turn undead" to be a universal ability. It makes sense for, say, the Life domain, but not Knowledge, War, or Trickery (haha, fooled you, Strahd, now run away). Keep Channel Divinity, but replace turn undead with more flavorful abilities, that better fit the domains. Also, this allows for another lever to flip in balancing the domains. Maybe the Knowledge domain has limited access to martial capability and only baseline healing, but their Channel ability lets them grant an auto-critical or max damage to an attack because they gain guidance about a weakness (shooting from the hip, it could be non-combat).

3) Too many damaging spells -- Wizards don't get healing. Everyone knows that. Well, Clerics don't need as many damaging spells. Yes, they've always had a few. I'm not saying to completely remove them. They just don't need any damaging cantrips and could afford to have the runt's pick on the others, excepting a few signature spells.

Bonus) This is probably more a bone with the Paladin, but where, exactly, is the line between a Cleric of War and a Paladin? In 5E, both have access to the same weapons and armor. They're both very martial characters with a battery of divine abilities. One has more spell slots. The other has more granted abilities. Also, one has (on average) one more hit point per level.

Hmm.... Maybe I should have voted "Dissatisfied" instead of "Somewhat Satisfied".

1) I had not really considered these points before, but I almost completely agree with you. I think keeping Knowledge, Light, Trickery and Nature in light armor, Life (maybe) and Tempest getting medium, and War getting Heavy would have made a lot of sense. Martial weapons for many of them would be fine (it irks me when I can't take a warhammer as a weapon).

2) I also mostly agree with this. However, I would suggest each domain getting two channel divinity options, some of which will be turn undead or an effect similar to turn undead. I do wish they could channel divinity a number of times equal to their Wisdom modifier instead of a set number of times a day, however.

3) This one I kinda disagree with though. I think their damaging spells is pretty limited. Or maybe the spells they do have are enough, but are a little lackluster or badly designed (ex. Sacred Flame should be roll to hit, not a save). I think they get some pretty good added domain spells, although I think some could be switched out for better choices. What I wish they did have was some more, unique to cleric control or influential spells. Not necessarily things that do damage, but ways to influence the stage or environment around them.

Actually, as I sit here writing this, I think I would have been fine with a much smaller Cleric spell list, and much more expansive domain spell list for each domain (say, 5 domain spells per spell level, going all the way through 9th level spells). Make each domain much more unique. For example, you'd end up with all clerics still getting basic healing spells like Cure Wounds, but only the life cleric with access to more powerful ones like Mass Cure Wounds, Heal, or Aura of Vitality.

 

[mellored]

I don't feel like domains differentiate clerics enough. I'd prefer a much trimmed general spell list (including many "staples") and then much expanded domain lists. Right now I feel like over half of cleric play is the same regardless of cleric. If this one does d8+STR with a mace once a turn and this one does similar damage with a cantrip, but both cast the same spells most of the time, they are mostly the same in play. And yes, some spells are good enough that they always get picked for a particular style of cleric.

I'd say that's a problem with all of the classes. All fighters are mostly the same fighters, all monks are mostly the same monks, all wizard cast mostly the same spells, etc...
Having stronger sub-classes, in general, would be good. Like make everyone's tier bumps (level 5, 11, and 17) be a sub-class features.

Clerics, at least, have a character defining channel divinity that gets's used fairly often. I'd like to see wizards replace arcane recovery with something similar. Evokers can cast fireball for free each short rest, or illusionist cast greater illusion.

 

[Blue]

I'd say that's a problem with all of the classes. All fighters are mostly the same fighters, all monks are mostly the same monks, all wizard cast mostly the same spells, etc...

I think it varies a lot. I can see a bunch of wizards of different sub-classes with 80% of their oft-used spells exactly the same. But I can see a fighter battlemaster archer and a fighter heavy armor great weapon master champion, and a dex based eldritch knight with buffs like shield - and they are all viable and all play different. (And that's with fighter which is commonly considered the least flavorful of the subclasses.)

Some being "more the same" is due to lack of choice - base game barbarian had such a disparity in their subclasses that only one was picked for 90%+ of characters. That's just a lack of variety, not really that they all play the same. Monk is somewhere in the middel in that the base class gives most of how they play, plus some subclasses (*cough*Four Elements*cough*) don't hold up so aren't picked as much, reducing variety.

But yeah, especially among the spellcasters I think the spell lists are far too inclusive and I've love to see more real choice come into play, including opportunity costs where subclasses will give you some spells but not others and which way to do you want to advance your character?

 

[Mercule]

1) I had not really considered these points before, but I almost completely agree with you. I think keeping Knowledge, Light, Trickery and Nature in light armor, Life (maybe) and Tempest getting medium, and War getting Heavy would have made a lot of sense. Martial weapons for many of them would be fine (it irks me when I can't take a warhammer as a weapon).

The martial weapon proficiency bothers me a lot less than the heavy armor. I'd still rather see something like "simple weapons, plus one martial weapon". I know that most PCs would really ever use one or two martial weapons, anyway, so there's minimal in-play difference. It's just much more thematic. The Tempest and War Cleric may both only ever care about having a warhammer to use, but the fact that the War Cleric could pick up a greatsword, whip, maul, etc. makes it feel different.

Which is actually one of the reasons I don't like heavy armor proficiency being as common. It cheapens the flavor of the War Cleric if half of the domains grant that proficiency. The Tempest Cleric can still have heavy armor, if the table is using feats. Yes, that means paying for something that's currently free. Give them a different ability that's still balanced, but more flavor-appropriate. I'm not trying to de-power the class, just make it less samey-samey. The ubiquity of heavy armor for Clerics just feels like the developers phoning it in.

The Life domain is a special case. I really hate it granting heavy armor. Not just because it's samey, but because it feels like it runs totally counter to what the domain should do.

2) I also mostly agree with this. However, I would suggest each domain getting two channel divinity options, some of which will be turn undead or an effect similar to turn undead. I do wish they could channel divinity a number of times equal to their Wisdom modifier instead of a set number of times a day, however.

I would be totally fine with effects that are similar to turn undead, but different. Maybe the Tempest gets to turn elementals. Nature might turn abominations. Knowledge gets to turn imbeciles (good in an election year). The point isn't that I hate turn undead. Just that, once you lose the pseudo-Christian context, it makes little thematic sense. I definitely want channel divinity to be a relevant ability.

As far as Wisdom bonus vs. set number of times, that feels like a balance thing. The Cleric class has enough thematic issues that I can't even make it to the point of evaluating the balance. Really, balance generally comes down to numbers. Give the class some flavor, then adjust the numbers until it works.

3) This one I kinda disagree with though. I think their damaging spells is pretty limited. Or maybe the spells they do have are enough, but are a little lackluster or badly designed (ex. Sacred Flame should be roll to hit, not a save). I think they get some pretty good added domain spells, although I think some could be switched out for better choices. What I wish they did have was some more, unique to cleric control or influential spells. Not necessarily things that do damage, but ways to influence the stage or environment around them.

Actually, as I sit here writing this, I think I would have been fine with a much smaller Cleric spell list, and much more expansive domain spell list for each domain (say, 5 domain spells per spell level, going all the way through 9th level spells). Make each domain much more unique. For example, you'd end up with all clerics still getting basic healing spells like Cure Wounds, but only the life cleric with access to more powerful ones like Mass Cure Wounds, Heal, or Aura of Vitality.

I actually couldn't name a ton of damaging spells for Clerics. It might just be the design of giving damaging cantrips to every class that bugs me. It could also be the standardizing of the damage done by spells of a given level. Clerics have always had some damaging spells, but I recall them as generally being either a higher level or smaller/fewer dice than the closest equivalent Wizard spell.

I think I like your idea of smaller base spell list and more domain spells. It actually makes sense for the Tempest to get lightning bolt and do it on par with the Wizard. War might do as much overall damage, but it'd be more in the form of magic weapon and the like. Knowledge should have access to more divination spells than others. But, the same thing could be applied to Wizard schools -- which will be a topic for much later.

Really, the core issue is that, over the editions, they've standardized the spell preparation math and the effects of spells by level and probably other factors, but they've left the Cleric with access to the full list of spells while the Wizard (and other arcane casters) are stuck with the restrictions they've always had. In AD&D, the DM was explicitly supposed to review the Cleric's list every day and potentially swap out spells they didn't like. Players who started with 3E or later would freak at that idea, but it was a very real balancing factor.

Want to have some fun? Get a deck of spell cards. Have the player select 1/3 to 1/2 half their spells every day, as normal. Shuffle the deck and deal out the remainder. It's not really the DM doing it, but it sure feels like the "will of the gods". Domain spells are still "gimmes".

 

[Gadget]

The martial weapon proficiency bothers me a lot less than the heavy armor. I'd still rather see something like "simple weapons, plus one martial weapon". I know that most PCs would really ever use one or two martial weapons, anyway, so there's minimal in-play difference. It's just much more thematic. The Tempest and War Cleric may both only ever care about having a warhammer to use, but the fact that the War Cleric could pick up a greatsword, whip, maul, etc. makes it feel different.

Which is actually one of the reasons I don't like heavy armor proficiency being as common. It cheapens the flavor of the War Cleric if half of the domains grant that proficiency. The Tempest Cleric can still have heavy armor, if the table is using feats. Yes, that means paying for something that's currently free. Give them a different ability that's still balanced, but more flavor-appropriate. I'm not trying to de-power the class, just make it less samey-samey. The ubiquity of heavy armor for Clerics just feels like the developers phoning it in.

The Life domain is a special case. I really hate it granting heavy armor. Not just because it's samey, but because it feels like it runs totally counter to what the domain should do.

I think this hearkens back to the original position of the Cleric: second option front line combatant that didn't even get spells until 2nd level. As such, good armor was more of a necessity. Looking back, we may sneer at the whole 'forbidden to use edged weapons' thing, but it did give them a certain flavor and niche, while keeping them from stepping on the Fighter's (and other top tier fighting classes) toes. The class was really just an amalgam of various Bishop Turpin tales with a side order of Van Helsing and Moses. Recent efforts to diversify the story and purpose of the class still run into this original archetype and role, causing friction. As such, I think the Life domain is more of an attempt to recall the traditional cleric, a heal bot front line warrior, rather than a pacifistic spiritualist.

I would be totally fine with effects that are similar to turn undead, but different. Maybe the Tempest gets to turn elementals. Nature might turn abominations. Knowledge gets to turn imbeciles (good in an election year). The point isn't that I hate turn undead. Just that, once you lose the pseudo-Christian context, it makes little thematic sense. I definitely want channel divinity to be a relevant ability.

As far as Wisdom bonus vs. set number of times, that feels like a balance thing. The Cleric class has enough thematic issues that I can't even make it to the point of evaluating the balance. Really, balance generally comes down to numbers. Give the class some flavor, then adjust the numbers until it works.

Undead may not be as prevalent in any given campaign as they might have been back in the day, but it would be somewhat of a challenge to find a turn <creature> ability that was not far too niche, or far to generic. There are of course, other options for channel divinity though. But the main problem with the diversify the flavor & adjust the balance method comes down to this: at what point is the knowledge cleric with limited armor and weapons--and presumably expanded spell power/channel divinity options to make up for the lack--pretty much a wizard with a light touch of rouge applied? This may not really be a problem at all, with many archetypes in 5e that could conceivably be achieved through various classes or class combinations, but must at least be considered.

I actually couldn't name a ton of damaging spells for Clerics. It might just be the design of giving damaging cantrips to every class that bugs me. It could also be the standardizing of the damage done by spells of a given level. Clerics have always had some damaging spells, but I recall them as generally being either a higher level or smaller/fewer dice than the closest equivalent Wizard spell.

I think I like your idea of smaller base spell list and more domain spells. It actually makes sense for the Tempest to get lightning bolt and do it on par with the Wizard. War might do as much overall damage, but it'd be more in the form of magic weapon and the like. Knowledge should have access to more divination spells than others. But, the same thing could be applied to Wizard schools -- which will be a topic for much later.

Really, the core issue is that, over the editions, they've standardized the spell preparation math and the effects of spells by level and probably other factors, but they've left the Cleric with access to the full list of spells while the Wizard (and other arcane casters) are stuck with the restrictions they've always had. In AD&D, the DM was explicitly supposed to review the Cleric's list every day and potentially swap out spells they didn't like. Players who started with 3E or later would freak at that idea, but it was a very real balancing factor.

Want to have some fun? Get a deck of spell cards. Have the player select 1/3 to 1/2 half their spells every day, as normal. Shuffle the deck and deal out the remainder. It's not really the DM doing it, but it sure feels like the "will of the gods". Domain spells are still "gimmes".

My experience with AD&D is far behind me and probably not representative, but I feel the whole 'DM is going to change your spells' thing was one of those (many) rules (I want to say obscure) that rarely, if ever was put into practice. I do agree that the spell list feels more blasty, even if that is not strictly the case. I think it is a side effect no longer needing to spend all spell slots on healing to keep the party on their feet, and numerous 'gottcha' monsters like level (or ability) draining undead that required a cleric to fix are no more or severely cut back. That and the addition of damage cantrips does make the modern cleric feel more like a White Mage.

One of my main problems with spellcasting in 5e is that there is too much sharing (or ways of acquiring spells not on your list) of spells between classes, though I understand the need to keep the spells section of the PHB to a reasonable length, not to mention the difficulty in designing and balancing spells in general. Having multiple different clerics with very different play styles and spells may make this situation better or worse, I'm not really sure.

 

[cbwjm]

Even in 5e clerics are really that blasty unless specific domains are taken (light, tempest). Looking only at the SRD, the only blast spells most clerics will be using are the cantrip sacred flame (cantrip), guiding bolt (1st), flame strike (5th), and fire storm (7th). They do have some other damage options (ones like inflict wounds and blade barrier have always been there) but outright blasting options are fairly limited without taking specific domains.