D&D 5E [Poll] Cleric Satisfaction Survey

How Satisfied are You With the Cleric Class?

  • Very satisfied as written

    Votes: 46 39.7%
  • Mostly satisfied, a few minor tweaks is all I need/want

    Votes: 51 44.0%
  • Dissatisfied, major tweaks would be needed

    Votes: 12 10.3%
  • Very dissatisfied, even with houserules and tweaks it wouldn't work

    Votes: 2 1.7%
  • Ambivalent/don't play/other

    Votes: 5 4.3%

My main complaints about the Cleric are as they have been since 3E and losing the 2E Priest class:
1) Too much access to heavy armor -- I get that the Cleric is supposed to be militant, and I appreciate that WotC removed heavy armor as default for Clerics in 5E. I still would have limited access to heavy armor to the War domain. I would even have considered the base class only having light armor, with a good number of domains getting medium (I don't see knowledge, especially, having more than light)

1a) Why the heck does the Life domain get access to heavy armor? With my above change, I question whether they should even have medium armor. Next to Knowledge or Tempest/Weather/Sea (whoops, fell overboard), I can't think of any domain that less deserves military training than Life.

2) Everyone turns undead -- This ability has its roots in the OD&D/AD&D patterning the Cleric off the Knights Templar; undead recoil from the cross, so they recoil from the Cleric's holy symbol. Having broken that mold, I see no reason for "turn undead" to be a universal ability. It makes sense for, say, the Life domain, but not Knowledge, War, or Trickery (haha, fooled you, Strahd, now run away). Keep Channel Divinity, but replace turn undead with more flavorful abilities, that better fit the domains. Also, this allows for another lever to flip in balancing the domains. Maybe the Knowledge domain has limited access to martial capability and only baseline healing, but their Channel ability lets them grant an auto-critical or max damage to an attack because they gain guidance about a weakness (shooting from the hip, it could be non-combat).

3) Too many damaging spells -- Wizards don't get healing. Everyone knows that. Well, Clerics don't need as many damaging spells. Yes, they've always had a few. I'm not saying to completely remove them. They just don't need any damaging cantrips and could afford to have the runt's pick on the others, excepting a few signature spells.

Bonus) This is probably more a bone with the Paladin, but where, exactly, is the line between a Cleric of War and a Paladin? In 5E, both have access to the same weapons and armor. They're both very martial characters with a battery of divine abilities. One has more spell slots. The other has more granted abilities. Also, one has (on average) one more hit point per level.

Hmm.... Maybe I should have voted "Dissatisfied" instead of "Somewhat Satisfied".

Man, you must really hate clerics lol. Your suggestions would basically neuter them to a low AC, no damage healbot with less utility than a bard/wizard/fun caster. You can't actually keep anyone up with the piddly combat heals, and thanks to whack a mole healing, you're better off just letting them go to 0 hp and just focus down the enemy faster until then. Basically all buffs requiring concentration, so you're limited in that department as well.

The reason Life clerics have armor is because they would be in the thick of it. Cure Wounds and Lesser Restoration are touch spells. Protection from Energy/Good//Evil, etc are touch. Bless is 30 feet, which means you're basically in someone's melee range on their turn. Besides, the game has too many no/lightly armored full casters as is. Armor and a martial bent help define the cleric class.

Their main issue is they have a pretty lame spell list, so the few good spells on the list (Hold Person, Spiritual Guardians, Banishment etc) tend to get trotted out more than other classes who have a more interesting spell list. It's not like you're casting Control Water or Meld into Stone a ton.
 
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Man, you must really hate clerics lol. Your suggestions would basically neuter them to a low AC, no damage healbot with less utility than a bard/wizard/fun caster. You can't actually keep anyone up with the piddly combat heals, and thanks to whack a mole healing, you're better off just letting them go to 0 hp and just focus down the enemy faster until then. Basically all buffs requiring concentration, so you're limited in that department as well.

The reason Life clerics have armor is because they would be in the thick of it. Cure Wounds and Lesser Restoration are touch spells. Protection from Energy/Good//Evil, etc are touch. Bless is 30 feet, which means you're basically in someone's melee range on their turn. Besides, the game has too many no/lightly armored full casters as is. Armor and a martial bent help define the cleric class.

Their main issue is they have a pretty lame spell list, so the few good spells on the list (Hold Person, Spiritual Guardians, Banishment etc) tend to get trotted out more than other classes who have a more interesting spell list. It's not like you're casting Control Water or Meld into Stone a ton.

I think any reductions he's suggesting would have to go hand in hand with some other improvements to compensate. Some more spells, some new abilities. I never got the impression he wanted clerics to do nothing but run around healing.

I'd like to see the domains get some more spells appropriate to their domain. Depending on the domain, some other additions would be nice, such as War getting two attacks at level 6, similar to the Blade Singer or Valor Bard. Maybe Nature gets an animal companion or Trickery gets a Pixie as a familiar. Just something that differentiates them from each other cleric.
 

The Life domain is a special case. I really hate it granting heavy armor. Not just because it's samey, but because it feels like it runs totally counter to what the domain should do.
Hmm?
Medics are one of the most heavily armoured units you can find (without compromising speed). Why would the magical equivalent be any less so?

The life cleric isn't a priest, they're a life Cleric. They're expected to go into dangerous areas and help the fallen.

Anything less than medium armour at worst runs totally counter to what the domain should do.
 

Hmm?
Medics are one of the most heavily armoured units you can find (without compromising speed). Why would the magical equivalent be any less so?
.

Say what now? where are you getting this idea from? I can't think of a single example in history where the medics were armored, let alone "most heavily armored you could find."

---Me, with life experience in the military doing medi-vac helicopters and as company combat lifesaver (combat medic lite).
 

Man, you must really hate clerics lol. Your suggestions would basically neuter them to a low AC, no damage healbot with less utility than a bard/wizard/fun caster. You can't actually keep anyone up with the piddly combat heals, and thanks to whack a mole healing, you're better off just letting them go to 0 hp and just focus down the enemy faster until then. Basically all buffs requiring concentration, so you're limited in that department as well.
I wouldn't say I hate Clerics. It just seems like it's built as a combination of homage to an archetype that no longer fits with the other default game assumptions and to fill a certain mechanical role. One of the biggest turn-offs, to me, in 4E was that the four roles were made explicit. I would walk from a table where the first concern was in filling those roles. That's just alien, to me. Yes, there's almost a guarantee of combat, you'll want to figure out how to handle injury, and magic clearly exists. That doesn't mean you need to check off specific boxes.

Cleric should not be synonymous with "healer". Yeah, sure, the Life Cleric is, obviously, going to be a fantastic healer. Otherwise, I'd be totally cool with a War Cleric that made the Ranger look like a healbot, but left the Paladin in the dust (fear the war god). Tempest probably should look like a blend of Evoker and Conjurer. Protection should have abilities that say, "If I need to use a healing spell, I didn't actually do my job."

The defining feature of the Cleric should be "adventuring servant of a god". I'm opposed to anything that makes the vanilla Cleric a warrior medic and in favor of anything that makes it clear that the first order of business is actually doing his god's bidding -- and doing so in bright, flavorful ways that make it clear that each god is different and their interests are different. The Cleric should probably have greater differentiation than any other class (other than, maybe, Sorcerer). There should be absolutely no way to mistake Clerics of Wee Jas and Heironeous (Raven Queen and Torm, for those outside of Greyhawk).

Also, I'm explicitly not advocating that they be neutered. I'm saying that the domain should provide more than the base class. What do all Clerics have in common? Well, enough combat training to be confident of adventuring, so simple weapon proficiency. Basic (i.e. light) proficiency in wearing armor doesn't seem out of place and shields aren't complex, either. They aren't cloistered, but they aren't soldiers, either, so average (d8) hit dice. They're conduits of divine power, so full spell progression. They can directly channel the will of their god, but it probably manifests differently, so a "blank" Channel Divinity mechanic. I would expect them to be learned, as well.

Looking at the base Cleric class, the changes would be: Remove medium armor proficiency. Remove Turn/Destroy Undead. Grant an additional skill pick. Maybe gimp the shared spell list a bit, in favor of more domain spells. Slightly nerfed, but not heinously.

Now, how are they different? What do they get from their gods?

Life: Best healing in the world (game). A way to be close enough to danger to actually heal those in need (I'm getting converted). Anathema to undead.
- Implementation: Mostly the same. I'd probably still keep them at only medium armor, but that's more because I see heavy armor as being exceptional. Grant Turn Undead. Increase number of domain spells to 4-5 flavorful spells per spell level. I'm not so sure about Divine Strike -- I'd rather see them not have damage increases -- but radiant energy does seem like something that could be at their disposal. I might replace it with a once-per-turn ranged healing effect for the same amount of HP, just to enforce theme.
- Net effect: Minimal change other than loss of heavy armor, a more tailored spell list, and exchange damage for healing.

Tempest: Access to the elements. Somewhat unstable/unpredictable. Dangerous to mess with. Ready to move in difficult environments.
- Implementation: Martial weapons. No additional armor. Stormtouched: At 1st level, when you are hit with a melee attack, you may use your reaction to create an arc of lightning to your attacker (works as shocking grasp but does not require actual casting or VSM). Rebuke elemental: At 2nd level, you can exert dominance over elemental creatures, using the same mechanics as turn undead. At 5th level, this allows you to banish elementals in the same way a Life Cleric would destroy undead. Storm shield: At 11th level, you can use your Channel Divinity to create an aura of lightning that functions as fire shield except that it does lightning damage and protects from lightning. Increase number of domain spells to 4-5, as with Life.
- Net effect: Less tanky, but heavy incentive to not attack them. More granted abilities.

The reason Life clerics have armor is because they would be in the thick of it. Cure Wounds and Lesser Restoration are touch spells. Protection from Energy/Good//Evil, etc are touch. Bless is 30 feet, which means you're basically in someone's melee range on their turn. Besides, the game has too many no/lightly armored full casters as is. Armor and a martial bent help define the cleric class.
OK. I get the logic. In practice, what I've seen is the armor is more to engage than defend.

Their main issue is they have a pretty lame spell list, so the few good spells on the list (Hold Person, Spiritual Guardians, Banishment etc) tend to get trotted out more than other classes who have a more interesting spell list. It's not like you're casting Control Water or Meld into Stone a ton.
Yeah. I'm really starting to think the biggest issue is the spell list. It's fine for Tempest Clerics to be nukes, but Life shouldn't be. There needs to be more differentiation, so that the different domains can really excel at what makes sense -- and suck at what makes sense.
 

Say what now? where are you getting this idea from? I can't think of a single example in history where the medics were armored, let alone "most heavily armored you could find."

---Me, with life experience in the military doing medi-vac helicopters and as company combat lifesaver (combat medic lite).

Odd, I always get assigned the most protection I can without compromising my mobility. In fact we even joke among my unit that if there's only one set of gear I get it, because if I don't, everyone else does.
 

Odd, I always get assigned the most protection I can without compromising my mobility. In fact we even joke among my unit that if there's only one set of gear I get it, because if I don't, everyone else does.

Oh, so you aren't talking about historical accuracy, or even fictional accuracy. You're just talking about your own personal gaming group. Your post is worded as if you were presenting objective, even historical, fact.
 

Oh, so you aren't talking about historical accuracy, or even fictional accuracy. You're just talking about your own personal gaming group. Your post is worded as if you were presenting objective, even historical, fact.
I... never said anything about a gaming group?

It's common practice for medics going into areas where the rules of law are ignored (or in the case of DnD, don't exist).
 
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I... never said anything about a gaming group?

It's common practice for medics going into areas where the rules of law are ignored (or in the case of DnD, don't exist).

Your justification as to why you have that assumption is based only on your individual gaming group. And how do you know this is common practice? What evidence do you have? I literally just got done telling you that when I was in the military, I worked with medivac (I was a UH-60 crewchief) and I was our platoons combat lifesaver. Medics are not more heavily armored. If anything, we were less armored. Our blackhawks didn't have heavy weapons or armor because it full of medical gear. The HUMVEEs didn't have any extra armor that were slotted for use by the medics. And these are in areas where there is no "rule of law". I can't even think of ANY historical reference where medics were more heavily armored. So I honestly have no idea why you have this assumption that it's "common practice." When I asked what that was based off of, you only gave me your own personal gaming group preference.
 

Oh, so you aren't talking about historical accuracy, or even fictional accuracy. You're just talking about your own personal gaming group. Your post is worded as if you were presenting objective, even historical, fact.

I... never said anything about a gaming group?

It's common practice for medics going into areas where the rules of law are ignored (or in the case of DnD, don't exist).
Still not sure whether you're talking real-life experience or at the game table.
 

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