Poll: How will the US Class Feature Variants be brought to Market?

How will WotC make the latest UA Class Variants officially available?

  • Free PDF

    Votes: 4 4.3%
  • Updated PHB

    Votes: 1 1.1%
  • Free PDF and Updated PHB

    Votes: 5 5.3%
  • Setting Guide

    Votes: 8 8.5%
  • Xanthar's Style Player's Guide

    Votes: 69 73.4%
  • Other

    Votes: 7 7.4%

  • Total voters
    94

Sunsword

Explorer
3.5 leading to Pathfinder within 5 years was a failure state. WotC has gone over the reasons they won't do a "5.5" many times, but it boils down to it being bad business to do so. Hasbro wouldn't want them to do that, because of the bottom line. If corporate mandates anything at this point, it will be Edition conservativism because it has been what works so far.

These new options aren't unbalanced with what came before. A handful of variants for each Class and some retraining rules a new edition do not make.
Do you play Magic: the Gathering? Are you aware of the changes they've been making? The increased schedule release?

Hasbro only cares for it's bottom line.

I don't know how you claim 3.5 was a failure? In my stores it sold for years as D&D and then for years as Pathfinder 1. And you seem to be overlooking 4.5.

My advice is to look at what's been happening with M:tG.

Magic item changes and some class changes was the major focus of 3.5, IMO they are the basics for an edition change especially if we keep getting more UA updates every week.
 

Parmandur

Legend
Do you play Magic: the Gathering? Are you aware of the changes they've been making? The increased schedule release?

Hasbro only cares for it's bottom line.

I don't know how you claim 3.5 was a failure? In my stores it sold for years as D&D and then for years as Pathfinder 1. And you seem to be overlooking 4.5.

My advice is to look at what's been happening with M:tG.

Magic item changes and some class changes was the major focus of 3.5, IMO they are the basics for an edition change especially if we keep getting more UA updates every week.
Every two weeks, and that indicates more a new supplement, not a "5.5" reboot while they are still selling big.

I don't really lay Magic in stores, no.

3.5 was in stores for a few years, while the publishing schedule was in disarray and people were being constantly laid off while they planned a new Edition which also afailed. Pathfinder is, from a business point of view for WotC, a failure for Wizards. Essentials was in stores for barely a year before 4E was canned entirely. Not something they are going to repeat while the core books are still selling like hotcakes.
 

Urriak Uruk

Debate fuels my Fire
Do you play Magic: the Gathering? Are you aware of the changes they've been making? The increased schedule release?

Hasbro only cares for it's bottom line.

I don't know how you claim 3.5 was a failure? In my stores it sold for years as D&D and then for years as Pathfinder 1. And you seem to be overlooking 4.5.

My advice is to look at what's been happening with M:tG.

Magic item changes and some class changes was the major focus of 3.5, IMO they are the basics for an edition change especially if we keep getting more UA updates every week.
sigh Again with the hot-take of "Hasbro is evil"?

Hasbro has almost no role in Wizard's internals, because Magic/D&D make are very profitable.

If you don't like the current strategy with Magic, blame the team at Magic. Hell, there's little crossover between Magic teams and D&D's teams right now, so I don't know how this is related.
 

Parmandur

Legend
sigh Again with the hot-take of "Hasbro is evil"?

Hasbro has almost no role in Wizard's internals, because Magic/D&D make are very profitable.

If you don't like the current strategy with Magic, blame the team at Magic. Hell, there's little crossover between Magic teams and D&D's teams right now, so I don't know how this is related.
I mean, even if we grant Hasbro corporate involvement, that would preclude a "5.5" since it has been demonstrated to be bad business.
 

TiwazTyrsfist

Explorer
It seems that in 5e they've decided that having a PHB2 is something they don't want.
They seem to have decided to keep new class features and new races fairly separate as well. Volo's and Mord vs Xan.

So, i expect these, and possibly more, and possibly some new subclasses in a Xanathar style book, with the updated class features (all the ones that updates to existing features not new or replacement features) EITHER being released in an adventurers league pdf and applied to all characters of appropriate classes, OR being AdvLeague non-legal.
 

ad_hoc

Adventurer
No. There are two separate points: revising the PHB, which is a terrible idea, and the PHB+1 design ethos of 5E which is great even for tables that don't stick to that in play.
The original post I was replying to said that making it a separate book is problematic for those who use the PHB +1 rule.

Examples weren't given but here's one - Ranger with Horizon Walker. If someone wants to use these rules they will lose out on the big Ranger buffs just to take a subclass they want from Xanathar's.

I said that they shouldn't make decisions with that in mind to which you are arguing with me about it.

So, what side are you on?

I've said that they shouldn't assume other books in play when designing a new book. I've also said they shouldn't assume a rule of PHB +1 is being used. That would severely hamper their design space.

What statements are you disagreeing with?
 

Parmandur

Legend
The original post I was replying to said that making it a separate book is problematic for those who use the PHB +1 rule.

Examples weren't given but here's one - Ranger with Horizon Walker. If someone wants to use these rules they will lose out on the big Ranger buffs just to take a subclass they want from Xanathar's.

I said that they shouldn't make decisions with that in mind to which you are arguing with me about it.

So, what side are you on?

I've said that they shouldn't assume other books in play when designing a new book. I've also said they shouldn't assume a rule of PHB +1 is being used. That would severely hamper their design space.

What statements are you disagreeing with?
Ah, sorry, comprehension failure on my part: I agree with you.
 

Yaarel

Adventurer
From the twitch video, Todd Talks, with Todd Kenreck, the UA Ranger options seem intended to be available for the Horizon Walker from Xanathars.

The consideration of the Core +1 rule suggests, the UA will be available as some kind of addendum to the Players Handbook itself. Even if it is also included a separate new book at the same time.
 

Sunsword

Explorer
3.5 was in stores for a few years, while the publishing schedule was in disarray and people were being constantly laid off while they planned a new Edition which also afailed. Pathfinder is, from a business point of view for WotC, a failure for Wizards. Essentials was in stores for barely a year before 4E was canned entirely. Not something they are going to repeat while the core books are still selling like hotcakes.
3.0 was in stores for 3 years. 3.5 was in stores for 5 years. It sold like crazy, but they released multiple hardcovers a month and competed with themselves the way TSR had in the past.

4 was in stores for 2 years and then Essentials was in store 2-3 years.

If WotC had not been afraid of 4E being OGL, Pathfinder 1 wouldn't exist, most likely.

I run a chain of comic and game stores and WotC has done it's best to run local stores out of Magic. I don't have a lot of faith in their decisions.

It's been great talking to you and I hope you are right.
 

Parmandur

Legend
3.0 was in stores for 3 years. 3.5 was in stores for 5 years. It sold like crazy, but they released multiple hardcovers a month and competed with themselves the way TSR had in the past.

4 was in stores for 2 years and then Essentials was in store 2-3 years.

If WotC had not been afraid of 4E being OGL, Pathfinder 1 wouldn't exist, most likely.

I run a chain of comic and game stores and WotC has done it's best to run local stores out of Magic. I don't have a lot of faith in their decisions.

It's been great talking to you and I hope you are right.
Essentials was released in Q3 2010, while the Next playtest was announced in January of '12. That's a year and a half before abandonment, even if the game was still in print for a while.

Point is, they have got the numbers to show that half editions don't help.
 

MarkB

Hero
As the thread stats, how will WotC bring the latest UA Class Feature Variants officially to players?
Here's an outlier guess: These features will be introduced in the Baldur's Gate III CRPG, in order to boost the flexibility of the classes in the game, and they will then be introduced into the tabletop game via a tie-in sourcebook that fleshes out the locations, creatures and NPCs introduced in the game.
 

Parmandur

Legend
Here's an outlier guess: These features will be introduced in the Baldur's Gate III CRPG, in order to boost the flexibility of the classes in the game, and they will then be introduced into the tabletop game via a tie-in sourcebook that fleshes out the locations, creatures and NPCs introduced in the game.
I think this is highly likely, particularly the Ranger features.
 

LuisCarlos17f

Adventurer
I have read the translated version and I could understand more things.

We will not see soon a new edition. How to explain it? Let's imagine a gamer who loves the Sims, and there is a new edition. Then there are three phases:

  • We want the return of updated version of the expansion X.
  • We want new things.
  • The balance of power is broken and this has to be fixed.

We are in the phase 1. If WotC doesn't publish more books is because they would rather a better work although this needs more time. I dare to say they are working in secret projects, someone linked to the media industry as teleseries and videogames.

Now WotC knows we like the variant options, and this is marked in the agenda, but the new edition will be after a couple of years publishing new ideas (classes with new game mechanics, for example) because they can allow themself these risks.

* In the future the classes will be like in Pathfinder 2, an optional list of "class feats" where you can choose your favorite class features, and then the subclasses would be like an exclusive list of "subclass feats".
 

Parmandur

Legend
@OB1 I wanted to apologize if I came off as grouchy about the PHB extension idea before: I don't think it will happen, ever, but I'm sorry for being a bit forceful about it.

In the new YouTube videos today from D&D Beyond interviewing Jeremy Crawford, he wanted to emphasize that these options are not Errata to the PHB, and are designed with the purpose of not supplanting them, and being usable alongside each other. The way he talked made it sound very much like this is all for a book. What's more, he indicated that they are done with Subclasses for the time being, and that the variant options cap off the PC rules on existing Classes for the purposes of whatever product is in the works. Given that, and the small amount of rules tested in terms of page count (the words per page match what is in the printed books, though art will extend it slightly, we are still talking a fraction of a book). I'm still leaning heavily towards Setting book.
 
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MarkB

Hero
@OB1 I wanted dto apologize if I came off as grouchy about the PHB extension idea before: I don't think it will happen, ever, but I'm sorry for being a bit forceful about it.

In the bee YouTube videos today from D&D Beyond interviewing Jeremy Crawford, he wanted to emphasize that these options are not Errata to the PHB, and are designed with the purpose of not supplanting them, and being useable alongside each other. The way he talked made it sound very much like this is all for a book. What's more, he indicated that they are done with Subclasses for the time being, and that the variant options cap off the PC rules on existing Classes for the purposes of whatever product is in the works. Given that, and the small amount of rules tested in terms of page count (the words per page match what is in the printed books, though art will extend it slightly, we are still talking a fraction of a book). I'm still leaning heavily towards Setting book.
I'm not convinced this is going to be a setting book. The way Crawford talks about adding these options to the DM's toolkit, it sounds like they're aiming for something more generally appealing. I don't see them requiring a player to buy into a specific setting just to gain access to these features.
 

Parmandur

Legend
I'm not convinced this is going to be a setting book. The way Crawford talks about adding these options to the DM's toolkit, it sounds like they're aiming for something more generally appealing. I don't see them requiring a player to buy into a specific setting just to gain access to these features.
Good way to boost sales for a Setting book, honestly.
 
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doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I'm not convinced this is going to be a setting book. The way Crawford talks about adding these options to the DM's toolkit, it sounds like they're aiming for something more generally appealing. I don't see them requiring a player to buy into a specific setting just to gain access to these features.
If it’s a “setting” book that explores multiple settings and delves into how to build worlds and explore less standard character archetypes, how to tie your PC into the world more firmly, how to create bonds and obligations, maybe some organization rules expanding on what’s in Eberron, etc,

Could also go another way, and be all about variant rules and options. Could finally see mass combat rules, stronghold rules, etc.

Or something wholly outta left field. 🤷‍♂️
 
@OB1 I wanted dto apologize if I came off as grouchy about the PHB extension idea before: I don't think it will happen, ever, but I'm sorry for being a bit forceful about it.

In the bee YouTube videos today from D&D Beyond interviewing Jeremy Crawford, he wanted to emphasize that these options are not Errata to the PHB, and are designed with the purpose of not supplanting them, and being useable alongside each other. The way he talked made it sound very much like this is all for a book. What's more, he indicated that they are done with Subclasses for the time being, and that the variant options cap off the PC rules on existing Classes for the purposes of whatever product is in the works. Given that, and the small amount of rules tested in terms of page count (the words per page match what is in the printed books, though art will extend it slightly, we are still talking a fraction of a book). I'm still leaning heavily towards Setting book.
Just totally out of left field, perhaps it's a "Rest of the Forgotten Realms" sourcebook (basically highlighting areas outside of what was covered in SCAG)?That way it would be still fairly generic for the general audience (and thus include subclasses and variant rules like we've seen), while being helpful for those who play in the setting or just want some background info when they play one of the hard-cover adventures...
 

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