[Polyhedron] Are women interested in this type of fantasy?

[Mallus]

Can't resist any more...

...I should know better than to get into this kind of discussion, but I'm weak --in a traditonally heroic/masculine kind of way, of course...I don't when to keep my mouth shut.

Do both men and woman still respond to traditional gender-role behaviors? Yup, that's been my experience. I know stong, smart, assertive, well paid women who like men to order for them whilst on dates. I know guys that like a touch of the demure in a woman, and at the very least, a woman in a dress and strappy heels.

However, everyone I know treats gender role as essentially fluid. They exist in an environment where said traditional gender roles are just that, roles, not commandments from on high or expressions of some irrefutable natural law.

The problem is, when it comes to the discussion of gender role, it seems people are more interested in proscribing human behavior than describing it. Everything becomes fodder for a
politcal argument.

SJ, the topic starter, clearly thinks that inverting the standard gender roles vis a vis pulp space fiction is somehow going 'turn the world upside down'. From other posts of his, I'd wager that he feels that way about real life as well. The funny thing is, I basically agree with the idea that the mythical 'woman in general' wouldn't be attracted to the mythical 'man in general' that she rescued via some derring-do. I think woman and men still gravtitate towards the stereoypes when it comes to romance. But some don't. And no one should live in an environment where they feel they have to anymore, at the peril of risking membership in their own actual gender...

 

[Particle_Man]

Re: Re: [Polyhedron] Are women interested in this type of fantasy?

Because if we didn't have double standards, we wouldn't have any standards at all!

Yeah, we should treat both cases the same: one is bad because it reinforces the formerly common idea that women are incompetent and can't work and shouldn't be working, and the other is bad because it reinforces the formerly common idea that men are imcompetent and can't work and...no, wait...hey, are those nachos?

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Yes but the women who rescue their men in this way usualy think less of that man. I'm not saying women don't/can't rescue men in thisa way, it's just that women put the situation in the evergrowing column of reasons to question their relationship with him (he becomes less desireable).

OK, flat out, are you a psych major, relationship consuler or very powerful telepath? Because if not, I would love to know where you get the power to make these sort of statements? I have never seen an example of this kind of thinking in myself or the mirdrid competent women I know.

Ugh, would it be so painful for people to simply comment on this thread about how they think (as was asked for) or how people they know closely have described thinking (which can give some useful backup data) but NOT how they think that lots of people they don't know think?

Kahuna Burger

 

[Kobold Avenger]

Men rescue women everyday. Every time the fuse blows or the garage door gets stuck. Traditionaly men do the work of the handiman around the home.

I know at least one woman whose boyfriend didn't know how to open the trunk of her car, let alone change the oil... But she clearly knew how to.

 

[Mark Chance]

I have never seen an example of this kind of thinking in myself or the mirdrid competent women I know.

What about the incompetent ones? You know, only a competent woman would agree with opinion X. If a woman agrees with opinion Y, she is therefore incompetent.

I showed the initial posts of this thread to my wife, an extraordinarily competent woman. I then asked if her she would have been attracted to me if I were an ineffectual man who required her to basically mother me. Her response was a very sarcastic, "Yeah, right!" For my wife, that is rather strong language.

The few other women that I know well (which, admittedly, isn't too many, mostly relatives and the wives of my friends) would all tend to agree with my wife.

Of all the females of any age that I know, I can only think of one that finds the idea of the ineffectual, "fixer-upper" man attractive, and this particular young lady is 15. While I risk be accused of "ageism," I try not to put much stock in the relationship experiences and opinions of 15-year-old girls.

 

[jdavis]

Are we still going with this? Look there is no answer, anybody that says that all women will act "this way" or "that way" are not only wrong but delusional. Women will act in all sorts of different ways, some will say yes and some will say no and some (like my wife) will laugh in your face for asking such a stupid question to begin with. People fall in love with the people they fall in love with and how will they know they are not going to fall in love with somebody they have never met and only know one fact about (they need to be rescued from a undescribed situation). How can you predict the way a person will act in this type of purely fantasy situation? We are talking about being captured by alien warlords from Mars here how are you going to come up with any kind of basis for an answer of how a whole sex will react? There are 6,302,346,040* people on this planet, how can you make a judgement call either way on a question as vague as this one on how even one of them would act? Some will say yes, some will say no, some will say they don't know and some will think you are insane. Can we just agree that there is no definative answer here?

Look Fabio has already been executed as a traitor against the Martain Imperial Warlords while we sat here and argued about if a woman would find him less attractive after she saved him from a certain death. Poor Fabio and his somewhat ineffectual alien warloard battling prowess, shame his good looks could not save him.


*http://www.census.gov/cgi-bin/ipc/popclockw

 

[jdavis]

What about the incompetent ones? You know, only a competent woman would agree with opinion X. If a woman agrees with opinion Y, she is therefore incompetent.

I showed the initial posts of this thread to my wife, an extraordinarily competent woman. I then asked if her she would have been attracted to me if I were an ineffectual man who required her to basically mother me. Her response was a very sarcastic, "Yeah, right!" For my wife, that is rather strong language.

The few other women that I know well (which, admittedly, isn't too many, mostly relatives and the wives of my friends) would all tend to agree with my wife.

Of all the females of any age that I know, I can only think of one that finds the idea of the ineffectual, "fixer-upper" man attractive, and this particular young lady is 15. While I risk be accused of "ageism," I try not to put much stock in the relationship experiences and opinions of 15-year-old girls.

Sense when is saving somebody from execution or slavery considered mothering? So if you got captured by aliens then your wife wouldn't love you anymore? Furthermore you are saying that if you got captured by aliens the vast majority of the women on the planet would no longer find you attractive? So getting captured by space aliens is a deal breaker for a romantic relationship?

I think you have sucessfully argued that for some women this would be a romantic problem and other people have shown proof that for some women this wouldn't be a problem, now all we need to do is take a poll of all the female Martain fighters to see how many of them married somebody they rescued. There is no A or B answer to this heck there really isn't a majority answer to this because there are 6,302,346,040* people on the planet with several hundred different cultural backgrounds, there is just no answer to this.

 

[Mark Chance]

WHo said anything about mothering in the first post?

That seemed to both my wife and I a fair characterization of the sort of treatment a generally ineffectual man would require. Therefore, it was the context in which her answer occurred. Since there are no such things as Martians, it seemed a sensible context at the time. I'm sorry I forgot to get our opinions pre-approved by the Proper Authorities.

jdavis putting words in other people's mouths
So if you got captured by aliens then your wife wouldn't love you anymore?

Did I say this? Please quote me.

jdavis putting words in other people's mouths again
Furthermore you are saying that if you got captured by aliens the vast majority of the women on the planet would no longer find you attractive?

I'm saying this? Again, please quote me.

I normally wouldn't ask for such proof, but I don't recall ever venturing a single comment about "the vast majority of the women on the planet."

I remember mentioning my wife, as well as a handful of wives of friends of mine, and one teenage girl.

Of course, I could be blacking out and typing all sorts of unusual stuff. If this is the case, I'd really like to know.

 

[am181d]

It sounds like people are arguing two different things:

1) Being absolutely helpless is not attractive.
2) Needing to be "rescued" does not equal being absolutely helpless.

Does anyone disagree with the above?

 

[Lizard]

Well, there's no "they", there's a "me". I didn't have any control over the art, but I did write the line in question, and the "Personal Journal" entries are likewise my doing.

I was hardly attempting to make a political statement -- just driving home the point that while most of the cliches of the genre should be wallowed in lustily, a few -- notably the sexism and racism -- could and should be discarded without weakening the 'feel'.