Polymorph Self Nerfed?

[Iku Rex]

Polymorph does not grant you any of the extraordinary abilities of the new form. This has been clarified by the Sage.

Natural abilities are defined (in the PH and in the MM2) as abilities that aren't supernatural, spell-like or extraordinary. It would be impossible for an extraordinary ability to be a natural ability.

Constrict is included as an example of a natural weapon (which it is not), and this is fairly obviously an error. Rake is the name of a natural weapon as well as an extraordinary ability and while you get natural weapons you don't get extraordinary abilities. Low-light vision was used in the glossary description of natural abilities, and is either an exception or an error. (Most likely the later.)

All extraordinary abilities among the examples were removed in the latest errata concerning the polymorph effect (in the PsiH errata).


(The best way to handle polymorph is to stop focusing on what you don't get, and instead look at what you do get. If you change into a troll form you're not a troll minus some abilities. You're still "you", only with thicker skin, longer arms, bigger teeth and so on. )

 

[hong]

Polymorph does not grant you any of the extraordinary abilities of the new form. This has been clarified by the Sage.

Cool. I get to wear my "Skip disagrees with me, therefore he's wrong" hat.

Natural abilities are defined (in the PH and in the MM2) as abilities that aren't supernatural, spell-like or extraordinary. It would be impossible for an extraordinary ability to be a natural ability.

Constrict is included as an example of a natural weapon (which it is not), and this is fairly obviously an error.

Yes. Obviously the definition of "natural" as being the complement of Su, Sp and Ex is in error.

It's a bit funny how EVERY ABILITY in the MM has one of these descriptors, isn't it? If they'd actually intended "natural" abilities to be used in running the game, they might have made mention of it in monster descriptions.

"Natural abilities" as words of art are a chimera, like the "shield" bonus to AC.

 

[Iku Rex]

Yes. Obviously the definition of "natural" as being the complement of Su, Sp and Ex is in error.

Constrict is obviously included by mistake because:

1: Several sources (The PH, the MM2 and Skip Williams) define natural abilities as "not extraordinary". Constrict is an extraordinary ability, and as such it is not a valid example of a natural ability.

2: It is mentioned as an example of a "natural weapon". Constrict(ex) does not fit the definition of a natural weapon, and nor does it resemble any "other" natural weapon.

3: It was removed in the most recent polymorph errata, in the PsiH errata. (If it was meant to tell us that you get certain "natural" extraordinary abilities then presumably WotC's game designers would know about it and not remove it in errata.)

4: That entire part of the spell is copy-pasted uncritically from 2nd edition, as made evident by the non-existent "swoop" ability, next to constrict.

It's a bit funny how EVERY ABILITY in the MM has one of these descriptors, isn't it? If they'd actually intended "natural" abilities to be used in running the game, they might have made mention of it in monster descriptions.

Every ability in the MM does not have a descriptor. Examples of natural abilities in the MM include a birds ability to fly or (possibly) racial bonuses to skills.

 

[hong]

Constrict is obviously included by mistake because:

Why are you so fixated on constrict?

1: Several sources (The PH, the MM2 and Skip Williams) define natural abilities as "not extraordinary". Constrict is an extraordinary ability, and as such it is not a valid example of a natural ability.

Constrict is a natural ability, and as such it is not a valid example of an extraordinary ability.

2: It is mentioned as an example of a "natural weapon". Constrict(ex) does not fit the definition of a natural weapon, and nor does it resemble any "other" natural weapon.

"Natural weapon" can have a meaning as plain English, not just words of art.

3: It was removed in the most recent polymorph errata, in the PsiH errata. (If it was meant to tell us that you get certain "natural" extraordinary abilities then presumably WotC's game designers would know about it and not remove it in errata.)

If poly X was meant to be used uncritically, presumably WOTC's game designers would have taken the time to get it right the first time, as opposed as churning out multiple versions du jour.

4: That entire part of the spell is copy-pasted uncritically from 2nd edition, as made evident by the non-existent "swoop" ability, next to constrict.

So make up your mind. Are we supposed to trust the spell description, or not?

Every ability in the MM does not have a descriptor. Examples of natural abilities in the MM include a birds ability to fly or (possibly) racial bonuses to skills.

I'm still waiting for examples of any entry in the "Special Attacks" or "Special Qualities" lines in statblocks not having one of the Ex, Su or Sp descriptors.

I repeat: "natural abilities" is a chimera, like the "shield" bonus to AC.

 

[Iku Rex]

Constrict is a natural ability, and as such it is not a valid example of an extraordinary ability.

Constrict is not a natural ability. Constrict is defined as an extraordinary ability in every monster description where it appears, including the ones in the recently published MM2. If it was a natural ability, and every monster listing was mistaken, it would still mean that you don't get any extraordinary abilities with polymorph. So I fail to see your point.

"Natural weapon" can have a meaning as plain English, not just words of art.

What is a "word of art"?

I have no idea what you are talking about.

If poly X was meant to be used uncritically, presumably WOTC's game designers would have taken the time to get it right the first time, as opposed as churning out multiple versions du jour.

What are you talking about? Is this meant to have some sort of relation to my post?

So make up your mind. Are we supposed to trust the spell description, or not?

Why do I have to "make up my mind"?

I'm still waiting for examples of any entry in the "Special Attacks" or "Special Qualities" lines in statblocks not having one of the Ex, Su or Sp descriptors.

Natural abilities are defined as "things a creature can do that aren’t extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like are natural abilities, such as a bird’s ability to fly." (PH page 158) The MM2 has a similar definition.

If entries in the "Special Attacks" or "Special Qualities" lines all have Ex, Su or Sp descriptors, that means that entries in the "Special Attacks" or "Special Qualities" lines aren't natural abilities.

What's so hard to understand about that?

 

[Plane Sailing]

One of the things that I find quite bizarre is that movement abilities are given willy-nilly, thus you can polymorph into an umber hulk and burrow through solid rock... and this isn't extraordinary?!?

Personally I wish that they had decided to have a wider classification right from the beginning, with some special qualities assigned a descriptor of "natural".

They could then have included constriction, raking, sprint (cheetah), scent and sundry other things under that heading and it would have been easy to adjudicate.

An alternative they could have taken is to move some of the "Ex" abilities into "Supernatural". Things like Regeneration, Spell Resistance and Turn Resistance. They sound pretty supernatural to me. I guess they wanted trolls to continue regenerating in an anti-magic field? I dunno.

There is an extended difficulty though since MM descriptions are littered with brand new abilities which are not part of the standard ones, liberally scattered between Ex and Su.

Basically I guess most DM's will make their own decisions. One distinction which might be a fairly common one is for a polymorphed creature to not possess an ability which would require some of it to be separated - you know, poison, gas clouds, shooting spines etc. A bit like in "The Mask" where anything separated from Jim Carrey turns back into it's original form.

I've written a lot, but checking back over it I'm not sure that I've said anything helpful. Still, that's the way with polymorph I guess

Cheers

 

[IceBear]

But I have a detailed email at home from Skip saying that you would get constrict.

The problem is, they never identfied any abilities as being natural in any book. The are all EX, SA, or SU.

As written I have to use a lot of judgement to decide what powers certain forms would provide. For example, I would grant a bat's blindsight as it is purely natural in function. One could argue that a human wouldn't understand how to interpret such sonic information, but then I would think I would have trouble figuring out how to use wings and gills too.

IceBear

 

[Iku Rex]

But I have a detailed email at home from Skip saying that you would get constrict.

You may be thinking of this e-mail: http://homepage.mac.com/guyf/DnD/Sage/PolymorphAlterSelf.html , where he claims that constrict is a natural ability. That is not the case. (There was no "fix" in the MM errata, the MM2 says it's extraordinary and it was removed from polymorph in the PsiH errata.)

Since Skip was (most likely) the one who left it in as an example of a natural ability, it's hardly a surprise that he doesn't know that it's extraordinary.

Edit: Of course, this is only marginally relevant to this discussion, since if constrict is in fact some sort of special natural weapon and a natural ability it would still mean that you don't get any extraordinary abilities.

The problem is, they never identfied any abilities as being natural in any book. The are all EX, SA, or SU.

Once again: Natural abilities are defined (in the PH and in the MM2) as abilities that aren't supernatural, spell-like or extraordinary.

As written I have to use a lot of judgement to decide what powers certain forms would provide. For example, I would grant a bat's blindsight as it is purely natural in function.

<shrug>
That's not the intent of the spell, according to Skip (who most likely wrote it).

 

[IceBear]

Once again: Natural abilities are defined (in the PH and in the MM2) as abilities that aren't supernatural, spell-like or extraordinary.

Name one and the monster.

As for the intent of the spell, I expect spells to fit into their own internal logic. Allowing someone to grow wings and fly and not allowing someone who is a snake to constrict around them fails that internal logic test for me. Since the spell is just horribly written as is, it falls to me as the DM to decide what abilities a form gives until they provide a better spell.

IceBear

 

[Iku Rex]

Name one and the monster.

SRD...Monsters (A)...Aboleth...swim 60 ft.

Easy.