Polymorph Self Nerfed?
- Thread starter GamerGeek
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Iku Rex said:
The only place in the core books that "natural abilities" is mentioned, or even used, is in one obscure paragraph in the spellcasting chapter of the PHB. Nowhere else (except for the polymorph spell itself). Every special ability in the MM is either Ex, Su or Sp. One would assume that if you were meant to take the "natural" ability definition seriously, there would be at least one instance of a special ability that fits the bill. There isn't. Even completely mundane abilities like constrict or improved grab, which don't break the laws of physics at all, are Ex. The MM2 is the same, I believe. This implies strongly that "natural" is a superfluous definition, not meant to be used in actual gameplay.
Just like "shield bonus" is defined in the PHB glossary, and yet the rules themselves never make use of it. It's a superfluous definition, overtaken by events since the PHB's release. Are you now going to claim that shields give a shield bonus to AC, as in the glossary?
Like I said above, you have to stop seeing polymorph as a spell that turns you into a new creature. See it as a spell that changes your body to resemble a new form, and in some cases helps you use your new muscles.IceBear said:
As a snake you can still wrap yourself around an enemy (grapple), you can still inflict damage by squeezing, you just can't do it with the specialized instincts and unique constriction muscles of a constrictor snake. (I don't know that much about snake physiology, but I'm pretty sure constrictor snakes have special biological mechanisms to help them squeeze hard and maintain the pressure.)
If all it takes is a snake-form, then why don't all snakes have the constrict ability?
As for a non-movement natural abilities: There aren't that many, which is probably why there is no (Na) descriptor in the first place. But natural armor is a natural ability according to the glossary. And you would get racial skill bonuses unless they are based on the form's mind (like a craft skill). (Technically natural attack routines are natural abilities, but apparently you're not supposed to get those with polymorph.)
IceBear
Explorer
So, I can't use my new muscles to constrict (and that's all it is, muscle power) but I can use them to swim really well, burrow really well, and FLY (the others I could grasp as knowing how to do because you can do them in your present form - just not as well - but flying is a different beast). If I know how to instinctually fly, I would know how to constrict.
Play Polymorph your way and I'll play mine. I'm more comfortable with my way as it makes sense to me - the spell as written doesn't, to me. Hopefully, all of this will be fixed in the revised rulebooks.
As for why all snakes don't have the constrict ability, I believe that's a factor of size. Look at any nature show. Pretty much any snake that gets picked up, automatically wraps itself around the person's arm just like a boa would wrap around an ENTIRE animal.
IceBear
Play Polymorph your way and I'll play mine. I'm more comfortable with my way as it makes sense to me - the spell as written doesn't, to me. Hopefully, all of this will be fixed in the revised rulebooks.
As for why all snakes don't have the constrict ability, I believe that's a factor of size. Look at any nature show. Pretty much any snake that gets picked up, automatically wraps itself around the person's arm just like a boa would wrap around an ENTIRE animal.
IceBear
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(Not really relevant here, but: According to the "stacking" entry in the glossary shields grant an armor bonus. So even though the glossary was probably written early in the design process, it can not be used as evidence for the theory that the shield bonus is a hold-over from an earlier draft of the rules. IMO "shield bonus" is a simpler way of saying "armor bonus from a shield that stacks with the armor bonus from worn armor", and the game designers may have thought listing shields with an armor bonus in the equipment section would be clear enough.)
Are you now going to claim that shields don't give an armor bonus to AC, since the books themselves can be interpreted otherwise (if you ignore parts of the rules and refuse to acknowledge clarifications from the game designers, like you do with polymorph)?
Explain why Skip Williams apparently thinks there is a category of abilities called "natural abilities".
Explain why the MM2, recently published, includes a definition of natural abilities.
Fortunately the intent of the rules with regard to armor/shield bonuses have been clarified by the game designers. So has the intent of the rules with regards to polymorph and extraordinary abilities.hong said:
Are you now going to claim that shields don't give an armor bonus to AC, since the books themselves can be interpreted otherwise (if you ignore parts of the rules and refuse to acknowledge clarifications from the game designers, like you do with polymorph)?
Explain why Skip Williams apparently thinks there is a category of abilities called "natural abilities".
Explain why the MM2, recently published, includes a definition of natural abilities.
A constrictor snake (medium) has constrict(ex). A huge viper snake does not.IceBear said:
http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd/srdmonstersanimals.html
Iku Rex said:
Screw designer intent. The point is how does this interact with the material already published, and whether it makes it less or more difficult to run the game.
Your filibustering technique needs work. You're the one who wants to go by the book. I'm pointing out that the book is screwed.
Explain why the abilities in the MM haven't been rejigged to be consistent with this new definition of natural abilities.
Explain why I should bother with Skip's opinions if the bulk of material in the core books don't support them.
IceBear
Explorer
Iku Rex said:
Because it's not in a viper's instincts to constict it's prey. That's why it has venom. I was just pointing out that there isn't some "special organs" or some such involved IN REAL LIFE. Now, if a PC polymorphed into a giant viper I can see an argument made to allow him to constrict. However, since ploymorph seems to give you the basic insticts to use your natural powers (otherwise no flying without practice) I'd say he couldn't constrict.
Basically, I like Planesailing's ruling more than the offical rules
IceBear
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