D&D (2024) Polymorph temp hp remain

[UngeheuerLich]

So Power Word Fortify does nothing, then?

Wrong. Instantaneous effect. THP rule applies. As elaborated before.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Something like that yes. You are following the thought process.

Would be helpful if you followed the thought process too.

We know that gaining temp hp is an instantaneous effect.

Not always. Only if the spell duration is instantaneous.

False life shows this.

See above.

Even heroism where they are gained at the start of your turn shows this.

No. It has a duration.

Polymorph shows this too from the text where they are gained when you shape shift.

And are lost when the spell ends.

It’s not clear what giving the instantaneous effect of gaining temp hp a duration even means.

It means it ends if the spell ends.

Giving the temp hp themselves a duration might make sense, but not the gaining of them.

Yes. As giving a condition is instant too. They still have a duration. Or remain until countered.

Which is what polymorph actually does. ‘When you shapeshifters you gain temp hp.’ (Paraphrased for you instead of target).

And you lose it if you are not shape shifted anymore.

Duration in relation to gaining makes no sense.

Yes.

 

[FrogReaver]

Would be helpful if you followed the thought process too.

Not always. Only if the spell duration is instantaneous.

See above.

That’s not true. You gain the temp hp all at once in a single moment. All the spells that give them behave this way.

No. It has a duration.

And are lost when the spell ends.

Yes the spell has a duration. The gaining of the temp hp doesn’t have a duration. The gaining happens all at once, aka instantaneously.

It means it ends if the spell ends.

That doesn’t make sense.

Yes. As giving a condition is instant too. They still have a duration. Or remain until countered.

Right, but the spell gives temp hp. As you just acknowledged below a duration on giving temp hp doesn’t make sense.

And you lose it if you are not shape shifted anymore.

I’m just focused on the gaining of them at the moment. Let’s talk what duration means in relation to gaining them.

 

[Selas]

Alright, I am going to take a hack at this since this specific topic has been covered ad nauseam in other forums and some still try to make this argument. Might be long since I'm quoting rules. THP rules have already been presented, so not gonna cover them. The rules do specify they're not actual Hit Points nor are they Healing, and those are covered in different rules:

Like UngeheuerLich said, the THP is an effect of the Polymorph spell, not a separate effect. Per the Polymorph spell description, "you gain THP equal to the Hit Points of the Beast Form"; this already ties the THP to the Beast Form granted by the spell. We also know that the Beast Form has a duration, because the spell says: "the target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or shape-shift into Beast form for the duration"--and Polymorph has a 1 hour duration that requires Concentration to sustain.

Chapter 7 describes spells duration & effects, as quoted below:

- CH7, Spell Duration: A spell’s duration is the length of time the spell persists after it is cast. A duration typically takes one of the following forms
Concentration. A duration that requires Concentration follows the Concentration rules. (Requires magic energy to be sustained to maintain the effect)
Instantaneous. An instantaneous duration means the spell’s magic appears only for a moment and then disappears. (Magic energy is only present momentarily to confer an effect, usually permanent unless the description states otherwise or another rule supersedes it)
- CH7, Spell Effect: The effects of a spell are detailed after its duration entry. Those details present exactly what the spell does, which ignores mundane physical laws; any outcomes beyond those effects are under the DM’s purview.

This indicates that the entire description after the duration is the effect of the spell, and that Concentration spells follow Concentration rules. Then there is the shapeshifting rules, which specify exactly what shape-shifting entails:

Shape-Shifting: If an effect, such as Wild Shape or the Polymorph spell, lets you shape-shift, its description specifies what happens to you. Unless that description says otherwise, any ongoing effects on you—conditions, spells, curses, and the like—carry over from one form to the other. You revert to your true form if you die.

This indicates that the entire description of the spell is the effect gained when you shape-shift, and that if you had an ongoing effect prior, it carries over when you shift.

Lastly, we have Concentration rules, which governs how all spells that require Concentration operate:

- Concentration: Some spells and other effects require Concentration to remain active, as specified in their descriptions. If the effect’s creator loses Concentration, the effect ends. If the effect has a maximum duration, the effect’s description specifies how long the creator can concentrate on it: up to 1 minute, 1 hour, or some other duration. The creator can end Concentration at any time (no action required).

Looking at all of these rules together, this means that Concentration is the specific rule here and trumps the THP rule because all effects granted by a spell description which requires Concentration end if Concentration ends. As for duration, the THP is tied to the Beast form which has a duration, so if the duration passes then the spell ends and the THP ends because the Beast form only lasts for the duration.

As for the Druid Wild Shape:
The description says that when you shape-shift you gain THP equal to your Druid Level, and Wild Shape does have a duration; however, it doesn't require Concentration and it doesn't specifically say the THP is tied to a Beast form like Polymorph does, so I would rule that the THP remains if you transform back. Keep in mind though that all of this is still part of the Wild Shape rules, so ultimately it will be DM dependent on whether you keep the THP from Wild Shape.

God that was lengthy!

 

[FrogReaver]

Alright, I am going to take a hack at this since this specific topic has been covered ad nauseam in other forums and some still try to make this argument. Might be long since I'm quoting rules. THP rules have already been presented, so not gonna cover them. The rules do specify they're not actual Hit Points nor are they Healing, and those are covered in different rules:

Yes.

Like UngeheuerLich said, the THP is an effect of the Polymorph spell, not a separate effect. Per the Polymorph spell description, "you gain THP equal to the Hit Points of the Beast Form"; this already ties the THP to the Beast Form granted by the spell. We also know that the Beast Form has a duration, because the spell says: "the target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or shape-shift into Beast form for the duration"--and Polymorph has a 1 hour duration that requires Concentration to sustain.

This is not technically correct. The effect of the polymorph spell is you gain temp hp. Gaining the temp hp is the effect not the temp hp themselves.

Nor are the temp hp in polymorph spell tied to the duration of the beast shapeshift.

You present a strong RAI case, but I don’t think RAI been in dispute.

Chapter 7 describes spells duration & effects, as quoted below:

This indicates that the entire description after the duration is the effect of the spell, and that Concentration spells follow Concentration rules. Then there is the shapeshifting rules, which specify exactly what shape-shifting entails:

Gaining temp hp is a spell effect. The temp hp themselves are not. Just like false life.

This indicates that the entire description of the spell is the effect gained when you shape-shift, and that if you had an ongoing effect prior, it carries over when you shift.

As long as you are explicit about what the spell effect is that’s fine. The spell effect is not, for the duration you have temp hp. The spell effect is you gain temp hp.

Lastly, we have Concentration rules, which governs how all spells that require Concentration operate:


Looking at all of these rules together, this means that Concentration is the specific rule here and trumps the THP rule because all effects granted by a spell description which requires Concentration end if Concentration ends.

It really doesn’t mean that at all.

As for duration, the THP is tied to the Beast form which has a duration, so if the duration passes then the spell ends and the THP ends because the Beast form only lasts for the duration.

Made up rules aren’t helpful.

God that was lengthy!

At least you consolidated the rules in 1 place for everyone else. Good job!

 

[Selas]

Yes.

This is not technically correct. The effect of the polymorph spell is you gain temp hp. Gaining the temp hp is the effect not the temp hp themselves.

Nor are the temp hp in polymorph spell tied to the duration of the beast shapeshift.

You present a strong RAI case, but I don’t think RAI been in dispute.

The effect of the spell is "you gain temp HP Equal to the HP of the Beast Form". If you don't select a form, you gain nothing, so there's your correlation. This is not like Wild Shape which specifically says you gain temp HP equal to your Druid Level.

Gaining temp hp is a spell effect. The temp hp themselves are not. Just like false life.

That is a bad comparison, because False Life does not require Concentration, it merely grants you the Temp HP, period! Heroism is also another bad comparison because although the spell requires Concentration, the spell description does says that a creature gains THP equal to your spellcasting mod at the start of its turn until the spell ends. The THP should go away when the spell ends unless you willfully disregard this.

It really doesn’t mean that at all.

That is what is says, or are you saying that Concentration doesn't mean what is says? It says verbatim: "Some spells and other effects require Concentration to remain active, as specified in their descriptions. If the effect’s creator loses Concentration, the effect ends." Although both rules are General, Concentration is the more specific here because THP is granted by a spell requiring Concentration.

Made up rules aren’t helpful.

It is not made up, it is based on CH7 spell duration, which say that a spell with a Duration that requires Concentration follows Concentration rules. You want to disregard this, you're welcome to do so; it's your table.

At least you consolidated the rules in 1 place for everyone else. Good job!

People are reading rules in a vacuum, or cannot properly express what they want to say, so someone had to put all the rules in one place for cohesion.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

That’s not true.

Wrong.

You gain the temp hp all at once in a single moment. All the spells that give them behave this way.

Yes the spell has a duration. The gaining of the temp hp doesn’t have a duration. The gaining happens all at once, aka instantaneously.

Doesn't say that.

That doesn’t make sense.

Just because you it does not make sense for you does not mean it makes no sense.

Right, but the spell gives temp hp. As you just acknowledged below a duration on giving temp hp doesn’t make sense.

Non sequitur. Stop putting words in my mouth.

I’m just focused on the gaining of them at the moment. Let’s talk what duration means in relation to gaining them.

Try to figure it out yourself. Seems as if you have a hard time follwoing my statements anyway.

 

[FrogReaver]

Wrong.

Doesn't say that.

Just because you it does not make sense for you does not mean it makes no sense.

Non sequitur. Stop putting words in my mouth.

Try to figure it out yourself. Seems as if you have a hard time follwoing my statements anyway.

When you can’t even admit what you explicitly said and act like I’m making stuff up when I mention it then I think we are done in this conversation. Maybe you said it in error. I dunno. But no point in going any further if that’s going to be the response.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

When you can’t even admit what you explicitly said and act like I’m making stuff up when I mention it then I think we are done in this conversation.

Bye. Good gaming.

Maybe you said it in error.

No. You are reading things in it. And misrepresenting what I said.

I dunno.

Clearly.

But no point in going any further if that’s going to be the response.

Yes. That is it.

I did not even say mine is the correct interpretation of the RAW. I offered a reading that is in line with spellcasting rules and probably RAI because it seems balanced that way and imbalanced if you put the THP rules above the spell rules.
I am very annoyed because some people use false analogies to dismiss my interpretation (which is shared by a few people btw).

I even say that the rules should be clarified, because it is not clear at all.

 

[ezo]

Well, I think we all know RAI, but since other features expressly call out temp HP vanishing when the feature effect ends, but polymorph doesn't, RAW it doesn't. They'll fix it in the errata....