D&D (2024) Polymorph temp hp remain

[UngeheuerLich]

Well, I think we all know RAI, but since other features expressly call out temp HP vanishing when the feature effect ends, but polymorph doesn't, RAW it doesn't. They'll fix it in the errata....

Which ones in the 2024 rules?

 

[FrogReaver]

The effect of the spell is "you gain temp HP Equal to the HP of the Beast Form". If you don't select a form, you gain nothing, so there's your correlation. This is not like Wild Shape which specifically says you gain temp HP equal to your Druid Level.

Yes. I’m saying that specifying the amount is X doesn’t tie it to the beast form. Defining the value of the temp hp is all that bolded text is doing.

That is a bad comparison, because False Life does not require Concentration, it merely grants you the Temp HP, period! Heroism is also another bad comparison because although the spell requires Concentration, the spell description does says that a creature gains THP equal to your spellcasting mod at the start of its turn until the spell ends. The THP should go away when the spell ends unless you willfully disregard this.

It’s a great comparison. Temp hp is instantly granted by all these spells. Which is the precise point. They use the same language as polymorph ‘you gain temp hp’ and yet they extend beyond the spell duration.

That is what is says, or are you saying that Concentration doesn't mean what is says? It says verbatim: "Some spells and other effects require Concentration to remain active, as specified in their descriptions. If the effect’s creator loses Concentration, the effect ends." Although both rules are General, Concentration is the more specific here because THP is granted by a spell requiring Concentration.

No. I am saying that you aren’t properly defining the effects. Gain temp hp is an instantaneous effect, it always happens immediately and the spell tells you when it happens.

We do agree concentrations spells can have instantaneous and ongoing effects applied by them, right?

It is not made up, it is based on CH7 spell duration, which say that a spell with a Duration that requires Concentration follows Concentration rules. You want to disregard this, you're welcome to do so; it's your table.

Yes. Nothing says that’s the ‘specific’ rule when it comes to temp hp. In fact, see world tree barbarian for what a specific temp ho ending rule looks like.

People are reading rules in a vacuum, or cannot properly express what they want to say, so someone had to put all the rules in one place for cohesion.

I think you misunderstood. It was praise not insult that I was giving you for consolidating the rules.

 

[ezo]

Which ones in the 2024 rules?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

View attachment 381468

Ok. Good point.
So for features it is clearer. An argument why the druid should keep the temp hp for shape shift.
Although: vitality surge itself does not state it. A very lenient reading could tie it to the use of rage... so it by default vanishes at the end of rage, while life giving force states it because it is used on other people... stretching my argumentation very thin...

Do you have any examples for spells? I have not noticed a single one there. Asking that, because spells explicitely have a duration entry in the rules.

 

[Selas]

Ok. Good point.
So for features it is clearer. An argument why the druid should keep the temp hp for shape shift.
Although: vitality surge itself does not state it. A very lenient reading could tie it to the use of rage... so it by default vanishes at the end of rage, while life giving force states it because it is used on other people... stretching my argumentation very thin...

Do you have any examples for spells? I have not noticed a single one there. Asking that, because spells explicitely have a duration entry in the rules.

It seems that for features it is clearer because they are not spells, so they have to have clearer language, and spells have a whole chapter dedicated to the rules that govern them. In the case of the Life-Tree Barbarian feature, they specifically call out THP ends when Rage ends because it is an effect granted by going into Rage.

 

[James Gasik]

About the only thing I can think of (and it's a stretch, lol) would be acquiring a Potion of Heroism via Tasha's Bubbling Cauldron- if you cast another TBC during the duration of the Heroism Potion, the spell notes that only Potions that were created by TBC and were not consumed disappear (thus the Heroism Potion's effect would persist beyond the original 10 minute duration of TBC and the casting of a second TBC).

Ignore me, you can't use Tasha's Bubbling Cauldron to create a Potion of Heroism in the first place, derp.

 

[ezo]

Ok. Good point.
So for features it is clearer. An argument why the druid should keep the temp hp for shape shift.

Agreed. As much as I don't like the idea of druid keeping them, the amount is notably less than something like abusing polymoprh so easily something a DM can handle.

Although: vitality surge itself does not state it.

Correct, like Wild Shape those temp HP would remain after the rage ends... if you have any left.

A very lenient reading could tie it to the use of rage... so it by default vanishes at the end of rage, while life giving force states it because it is used on other people... stretching my argumentation very thin...

I don't see how you could read it that way, even with a lenient twist.

What I find interesting is each round you can give the temp HP to a different creature or the same, just not yourself. Given you can use a bonus action to extend it for up to 10 minutes, you could effectively give temp HP to 10 creatures over a 1-minute period, and then go fight for a few rounds, and replenish the lost temp HP from those creatures, rinse and repeat.

I mean, honestly, am I reading that right??? And this is at 1st level giving an average of 7 temp HP to each creature you choose... one at a time.

Do you have any examples for spells? I have not noticed a single one there. Asking that, because spells explicitely have a duration entry in the rules.

I haven't reviewed any of the spells other than ones people bring up in the thread. So, honestly, I don't know.

 

[Selas]

The problem with spells is that this distinction is not explicitly made, so people are poking holes at the rules to see what sticks. WotC assumes that players will follow the Concentration rules since it says spell effects end when concentration ends, but because spells like Polymorph don't have that specific line that the Barbarian feature has, then this must mean that they follow standard THP rules. We will continue to have this debate until errata comes out because there will be players who will stick with their conclusions until official ruling comes out.

I haven't reviewed any of the spells other than ones people bring up in the thread. So, honestly, I don't know.

There are only 4 spells in the 2024 PHB that grant THP and have Concentration: Polymorph, True Polymorph, Shapechange and Heroism. Of those, the only Heroism specifies that its effect ends with the duration.

 

[FrogReaver]

The problem with spells is that this distinction is not explicitly made, so people are poking holes at the rules to see what sticks. WotC assumes that players will follow the Concentration rules since it says spell effects end when concentration ends, but because spells like Polymorph don't have that specific line that the Barbarian feature has, then this must mean that they follow standard THP rules. We will continue to have this debate until errata comes out because there will be players who will stick with their conclusions until official ruling comes out.


There are only 4 spells in the 2024 PHB that grant THP and have Concentration: Polymorph, True Polymorph, Shapechange and Heroism. Of those, the only Heroism specifies that its effect ends with the duration.

Small correction, 2024 heroism doesn’t say the temp hp end. It says gaining them on the start of your turn ends with the spell.

 

[ezo]

There are only 4 spells in the 2024 PHB that grant THP and have Concentration: Polymorph, True Polymorph, Shapechange and Heroism. Of those, the only Heroism specifies that its effect ends with the duration.

I concur (after reviewing all the spells).

As @FrogReaver noted, Heroism does not specify the temp HP end (or vanish) with the end of the spell, you simply don't get any more at the start of your next turn once the spell end.

Polymorph, Shapechange, and True Polymorph all grant temp HP as part of casting the spell. In each of the other three cases, the spells simply state they end early if the target creature has no temp HP left.

However, gaining the temp HP from these spells IS an effect of the spell. And as others have pointed out, under the Concentration rules in the Rules Glossary:

Some spells and other effects require Concentration to remain active, as specified in their descriptions. If the effect’s creator loses Concentration, the effect ends. If the effect has a maximum duration, the effect’s description specifies how long the creator can concentrate on it: up to 1 minute, 1 hour, or some other duration. The creator can end Concentration at any time (no action required). The following factors break Concentration.

If concentration is lost, the effects of these spels is lost, that includes the gaining of these temp HP. In a similar fashion, if any of these spells were dispelled, the temp HP would also go away. They are granted by the magic of the spell currently in effect due to the concentration requirement.

While adding text to these spells would help clarify this, at this point I am convinced it is uncessary. It wasn't until I actually reviewed the section on spells on Effects (below) that the definitive connection between the two solidified my position.

The effects of a spell are detailed after its duration entry. Those details present exactly what the spell does, which ignores mundane physical laws; any outcomes beyond those effects are under the DM’s purview. Whatever the effects, they typically deal with targets, saving throws, attack rolls, or all three, each of which is detailed below.

That is my position at this point. Feel free to disagree, but I'm not debating it further. I think my position at this point is clear.

EDIT: I'll add quickly that in all other cases the spells aren't concentration, so there is no ending to the effects other than being dispelled if the spells have a duration. If not, they're instantaneous and only a counterspell will stop them. In other words, those spells' effect can't end due to lose of concentration because they are not concentration spells.