Proposal: PH2 and SORCERER

[covaithe]

I could be talked into that. I don't think +1 to hit for levels 1 to 4 is overpowered for a feat. My only qualm is that it would keep the character reviewers on their toes around level 5. But it seems like a sufficiently rare situation that I'm not too worried about it.

 

[weldon]

If we adopt the flat bonus for everyone at 5th, 10th and 15th levels maybe we just word that bonus so that it does not stack with the Weapon Expertise feat? That way we don't have to rewrite the RAW and just clarify the L4W house rule for the flat bonus.

People can still take the expertise feat if they want to at 1st level, but it provides no mechanical advantage in L4W once you reach 5th level. Characters can just follow the normal retraining rules once they reach 5th level if the players so choose (and why wouldn't they?).

 

[JoeNotCharles]

I know there's supposed to be a fixed list of bonus types (ok, I looked it up: armor, enhancement, feat, item, power, proficiency, racial, shield) but I don't see a problem with adding another.

Why don't we make two changes:

1. Weapon Expertise and Implement Expertise provide an expertise bonus instead of an untyped bonus.
2. All characters get a +1 expertise bonus to all attacks at Level 5 (+2 at level 15, +3 at level 25).

Then the Expertise feats automatically become useless at level 5 without any special rules, just because the bonuses don't stack. People don't have to retrain them, but they're probably going to.

If we do this, I'd probably give Expertise feats some other minor bonus that kicks in at level 5, so that there's a point to keeping them. Maybe +2 to damage on critical hits with that weapon or implement at level 5, +4 at 15, +6 at 25. (Although that would encourage a weird retraining progression of its own: keep Expertise until level 11, then retrain it to Devastating Critical until level 15 or 25, then retrain back to Expertise to reduce the variance in your criticals. Or just take both.)

I picked critical hits because it's a bonus that won't come into play with every hit, so it doesn't completely change the feat, and +2/+4/+6 because it seemed like +1/+2/+3 damage wouldn't be worth it. Maybe +3/+6/+9 would be better? Comparing to Devastating Critical, which does avg. 5.5 damage, that means from level 5-10, this is infinitely better (can't take Dev. Crit till level 11), from 11 to 14 this is much worse (3 vs. avg 5.5), from 15 to 24 this is competitive (6 is almost equal to the avg damage, with no chance of low rolls but no chance of high), and from 25 to 30 this is much better.

 

[Lord Sessadore]

I know there's supposed to be a fixed list of bonus types (ok, I looked it up: armor, enhancement, feat, item, power, proficiency, racial, shield) but I don't see a problem with adding another.

Why don't we make two changes:

1. Weapon Expertise and Implement Expertise provide an expertise bonus instead of an untyped bonus.
2. All characters get a +1 expertise bonus to all attacks at Level 5 (+2 at level 15, +3 at level 25).

Then the Expertise feats automatically become useless at level 5 without any special rules, just because the bonuses don't stack. People don't have to retrain them, but they're probably going to.

I like this. I have no qualms about adding a new bonus type to keep this thing in check; if we only use it for this special case, what's the big deal, right?

If we do this, I'd probably give Expertise feats some other minor bonus that kicks in at level 5, so that there's a point to keeping them. Maybe +2 to damage on critical hits with that weapon or implement at level 5, +4 at 15, +6 at 25. (Although that would encourage a weird retraining progression of its own: keep Expertise until level 11, then retrain it to Devastating Critical until level 15 or 25, then retrain back to Expertise to reduce the variance in your criticals. Or just take both.)

I picked critical hits because it's a bonus that won't come into play with every hit, so it doesn't completely change the feat, and +2/+4/+6 because it seemed like +1/+2/+3 damage wouldn't be worth it. Maybe +3/+6/+9 would be better? Comparing to Devastating Critical, which does avg. 5.5 damage, that means from level 5-10, this is infinitely better (can't take Dev. Crit till level 11), from 11 to 14 this is much worse (3 vs. avg 5.5), from 15 to 24 this is competitive (6 is almost equal to the avg damage, with no chance of low rolls but no chance of high), and from 25 to 30 this is much better.

I think I agree with the sentiment on this, but it is kind of weird that a feat suddenly changes purpose at level 5, isn't it? I think the 3/6/9 bonus sounds good, but I'm not sure Expertise should switch purposes like that ... thoughts, anyone?

 

[Atanatotatos]

I though that this whole thing of substituting the feat with the flat bonus was a bit troublesome because of its relative complexity... wouldn't this make it more complex?
Besides, criticals are already uber per se, I don't think they need a boost. That kind of bonus would be worthless at low levels, and at high levels it would stack upon a hge pile of other bonuses that are more than enough already, IMO.

 

[renau1g]

agreed ata, just a simple static bonus to hit... it's simple, to the point, accomplishes what's needed (fixing the math)... give it at 5/15/25.

 

[JoeNotCharles]

BTW, if it looks like this debate is dragging out too long, I suggest voting on the PHB2 with Expertise feats as is, and then submitting a separate proposal for changing them to a static bonus, or whatever, and what to do for characters who already took them.

 

[renau1g]

nah, we got 8 days till it can be approved. We need something to talk about until then

 

[N3rday]

I don't see why we should bother to make it any more complicated than +1/+2/+3 at 5/15/25 or whatever. I don't think we really need an entire two paragraphs on our Character Creation page talking about how our Expertise feat changes randomly at level 5 to give damage bonuses, or how the Expertise feat ceases to be viable past level 5 and should be retrained. Let's just make it a static bonus and leave it at that.

As far as flavor, the original feat didn't really have "flavor" beyond "Oh, you are an expert with whatever weapon" or "Oh, you kick +1 butt with Orbs." I don't see any reason to worry about flavor or adding anything, the feat was a flavorless +1 to hit before, and it will be the same now, except without the feat tax WotC added.

 

[renau1g]

Agreed. This is possibly the most flavourless feat offered, yet its unfortunately one of the most desirable.