Psion vs. Cerebremancer vs. Psion Uncarnate

Asmor

First Post
I've got to come up with a 17th level character for a campaign (campaign's not gonna be starting for a while, so I'm not in any rush). I'm pretty sure I want to be a psion because I've been on a psionics kick lately and my last character was a fighter/paladin and I'm sick of the whole martial thing for now. Plus, the party doesn't have a decent offensive caster out of 6-7 members (other casters are a Cleric and a significantly lower-level Tarot Mage, 3rd party thing).

So my first instinct was to go with Cerebremancer, with a Wizard/Psion build. Psion for the business spells, Wizard for the utility. I've decided I probably won't go that direction, though, because it just seems a little repetitive and redundant, not to mention all the extra book keeping.

So now I'm split between going straight Psion or going Psion 7/Psion Uncarnate 10. I really like the idea of playing an Uncarnate Shaper. I find the whole duality (is that the right word?) of an incorporeal thing who can create physical manifestations rather interesting. I'd style myself almost as a force of nature.

On the flip side, though, this means losing 4 manifester levels, which seems like it might be a pretty big deal. Given that most of the damage spells are augmentable, that's almost like -4d6 to all my damage and -2 to all my saves, not to mention losing out on the really cool abilities that level 9 powers can give you. It would also mean a big difference in power points, the straight psion having almost 60 percent more (assuming a 28 intelligence, 18 natural + 4 ability increase + 6 item, that's 205 PP vs. 326). As a 13th-level manifester I could cast 15 max-level powers per day (at 13pp each) vs. a 17th-level manifester casting 17 max-level powers per day (at 17pp each).

Roleplaying isn't really a huge part of this game, so my preference for the character idea isn't as important as most people might suggest, although I certainly won't discount it. The fact that I'm torn on this decision of coolness vs. raw power is evidence that the idea does mean a bit to me...

So basically I guess what it boils down to is how useful the whole Uncarnate thing is. Given that we're 17th level, I'd say it's a fair assumption that anything that wants to hit me could hit me, so the only real benefit I get is flying and a 50% miss chance.

What is your opinion?
 

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Have you had a look at the unbodied, to compare to the Psion Uncarnate? Starting at high level is the perfect opportunity to try one.
 


Unfortunately there aren't too many good PrC's for psions. I've never been a big fan of either psion uncarnate or cerebmancer due to the lost levels. Have you looked at either the Slayer or the Thrallherd? You only loose 1 level with the slayer but gain d8 hit dice, proficiency with all weapons and armor, and immunity to all mind affecting powers (a VERY nice ability). Thrallherd is cool because of the thralls and followers you command. Still if I were in your position i might just be inclined to stay psion in order to get access to the 9th level spells
 

Asmor said:
I'd say it's a fair assumption that anything that wants to hit me could hit me, so the only real benefit I get is flying and a 50% miss chance.

You have to add cover to that (you only have to stick your face out of the wall or floor to see, so there´s no reason to show your whole body). Many opponents won´be able to touch you in the least; many more won´t be able to grapple you, you´re immune to trip, are perfectly silent, can´t be detected by smell, tremorsense and many forms of blindsight, and you´ll be immune to almost all environmental dangers. I don´t know if it´s worth the loss of 8th and 9th level powers, but sounds way cool.

On the comparison of psion uncarnate vs Unbodied, in both cases you lose 4 manifester levels, and have very similar abilities. Unbodied have better stats, but the psion uncarnate have the very important assume equipment ability, and you´re not forced to be a telepath.
 

superkurt13 said:
Unfortunately there aren't too many good PrC's for psions. I've never been a big fan of either psion uncarnate or cerebmancer due to the lost levels. Have you looked at either the Slayer or the Thrallherd? You only loose 1 level with the slayer but gain d8 hit dice, proficiency with all weapons and armor, and immunity to all mind affecting powers (a VERY nice ability). Thrallherd is cool because of the thralls and followers you command. Still if I were in your position i might just be inclined to stay psion in order to get access to the 9th level spells

Cerebramancer is probably the most broken PrC. Yes you give up 3 levels of each but if you take Practised Manifester/Spellcaster, you make up most of the loss and have more endurance than either one. Below is my 17th level character in a campaign that just ended at 20th.

This is a great PrC and really makes the perceptions of Psionics being broken much more so. Both classes use the same primary state so that a spliting of stats doesn't water down the character.

Jadenian Hallistar 17th level
Male Kalashtar Psion Telepath 4(14), Wizard 3(13), Cerebremancer 10, Level 1, 3 Psion Kalashtar Telepath replacement level
XP: 136000+
Align: LG Race: Medium humanoid (Kalashtar)
Init: +1/3(4) Senses Spot: +9 Search: +13 Listen: +2
Languages: Common, Quori, Riedran, Daan, Draconic, Orcish, Goblinoid
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AC: 18 (19) Touch: 16 (17) Flat-footed: 15
HP: 78 (17 HD) 1
Fort: +12 (+1) Ref: +13(14) (+1) Will: +19 (+21 vs. mind) (+1 when in state of insight DP Feat)
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Speed: 30 ft.
Melee: +8
Ranged: +1 light crossbow +13(14) (1d8+1) (+2d6 w/Psionic shot), Ranged touch +12(13) within 30’, Ranged +11(12) at more than 30’
Base Attack: +8/+3; Grapple +7
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Scrolls:
Scroll of Dispel Magic @9th level
Scroll of Spell Vulnerability @ 9th level
Psionic Powers (ML 17, PP 250) DC 19/ (21 for telp*) + pwr/lvl + aug Pts Spent: 243
7th (13) - Energy Wave DC 26-29, Evade Burst
6th (11) – Psionic Disintegrate DC 26, Mindswitch DC 27-30, Temporal Acceleration, Psionic Contingency
5th (9) – Psychic Crush* DC 25, Adapt Body, Mind probe* DC 25, Tower of Iron Will*
4th (7) – Dimension Door, Energy Adaptation, Schism*, Mindwipe* DC 24-29
3rd (5) – Body Adjustment, Hostile Empathic Transfer* DC 23, Psionic Blast* DC 23, Stun Quori Spirit* DC 22-28
2nd (3) - Read Thoughts* DC 23, Levitate
1st (1) – Energy Ray, Entangling Ectoplasm, Force Screen, Mind Link* (racial 3/day free or cost), Mind Thrust* DC 20-29, Psionic Charm* DC 20-30, Vigor
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Spell Prepared: CL 17th
Spells memorized and Bonus Spells: (3x1st, 2x2nd, 2x3rd, 2x4th, 2x5th, 1x6th, 1x7th, 1x8th, 1x9th)
DC 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
19/20 19/21 19/22 19/23 19/24 19/25 19/26 19/27 19/28
2x7th – Greater Teleport, Finger of Death
3x6th – Acid Fog, Mordenkainen’s Lucubration, Otiluke’s Freezing Sphere
5x5th – Mass Fly, Greater Blink, Wall of Stone, Cone of Cold, Teleport
6x4th – Greater Invisibility, Orb of Acid, Stoneskin, Detect Scrying, Orb of Force, Force Missiles
6x3rd - Bands of Steel, Dispel Magic, Invisibility Sphere, Resonating Bolt, Fireball, Anticipate Teleportation
6x2nd – Scorching Ray x2, See Invisibility x2, Phantasmal Assailants, Mirror Image
7x1st – Magic missile x3_4, Tenser’s Floating Disc, Obscuring mist, Shocking Grasp
4x0th – Detect Magic x2, Read Magic, Mage Hands
Spell book:
0th Read Magic, Detect Magic, Light, Ray of Frost, Disrupt Undead, Mage Hands, Daze, Acid Splash, Detect Poison, Flare, Mending, Message, Arcane Mark, Resistance
1st Shield, Chill Touch, Mage Armor, Sleep, Identify, Expeditious Retreat, Mount, Color Spray, Cause Fear, Ray of Enfeeblement, Obscuring Mist, Disguise Self, Magic Missile, Tenser’s Floating Disc, Repair Light Damage, Enlarge Person, Shocking Grasp, Buzzing Bee
2nd Phantasmal Assailants, Familiar Pocket, Scare, Mirror image, Scorching Ray, Web, Knock, Arcane Lock, Spectral Hand, Baleful Transportation, Belker Claws, Body of the Sun, Bone Fiddle, Burning Sword, See Invisibility, Invisibility
3rd Lesser Crimson Bands of Cytorakk, Lightning Bolt, Fireball, Vampiric Touch, Spell Vulnerability, Spider skin, Hold Person, Resonating Bolt, Amorphous Form, Fly, Chain Missile, Dispel Magic, Anticipate Teleportation, Invisibility Sphere
4th Unluck, Burning Blood, Orb of Acid, Orb of Force, Orb of Electricity, Assay of Spell Resistance, Force Missiles, Greater Invisibility, Stoneskin, Polymorph, Evard’s Black Tentacles, Voice of the Dragon
5th Feeblemind, Leomund’s Hidden Lodge, Teleport, Passwall, Cone of Cold, Permanency, Wall of Stone, Baleful Polymorph, Transmute Rock to Mud, Transmute Mud to Rock, Mass Fly, Greater Blink
6th Stone to Flesh, Mordenkainen’s Lucubration, Acid Fog, Fire Spiders, Otiluke’s Freezing Sphere, True Seeing, Cloak of the Sea
7th Finger of Death, Greater Teleport, Mordenkainen’s Magnificent Mansion, Statue, Limited Wish, Delayed Blast Fireball, Synostodweomer
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Abilities: Strength 10 (0), Dexterity 12 (16 w/gloves) (+3), Constitution 14 (+2), Intelligence 22 (28 w/circlet) (+4 level stats) (+9), Wisdom 10 (0), Charisma 10 (14 w/Cloak)(0/+2)
Special Qualities: +2 racial bonus on saves against mind effecting spells, +2 racial bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate, Immune to dream and nightmare spells, Mind link 2/day, 1 extra power point per level, -1 to all strength based checks, Divine boon: Comprehend Languages 1/day @ 17th level
Action Points: 13(4)+Temp (up to 8 a day if under prophetic favor, one at a time)
Feats: Summon Familiar, Telepathic Talent, Psicrystal Affinity, Point Blank Shot, Psionic Shot (+2d6 to missile weapons if psionic focus spent), Precise Shot (no penalties for firing into melee), Scribe Scroll (11912 Craft Points), Practiced Spell caster (up to +4 levels for caster effect based on other classes), Dragon Prophesier (8xday, duration 17 rounds), Alertness, Compound Psicrystal, Prophesy’s Hero (1 temp action point when in prophetic favor), Practiced Manifester (up to +4 levels for Manifester effect based on other classes)
Skills (160): Auto Hypnosis (8/+10), Bluff (5/+9), Concentration (20/+22), Diplomacy (10/+16), Intimidate (1/+7), Knowledge (Arcana) (19/+28), Knowledge (Dungeoneering) (6/+15), Knowledge (History) (1/+10), Knowledge (Psicraft) (15/+26), Knowledge (Psionics) (18/+29), Knowledge (Planar) (5/+15), Knowledge (Religion) (10/+19), Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty) (3/+12), Knowledge (Local area) (3/+12), Languages (2, Orcish, Goblinoid), Listen (4/+6 PC), Move Silently (4/+7 PC), Search (4/+13 PC), Sense Motive (3/+3 PC Sympathetic), Sleight of Hand (2/+5), Spellcraft (19/+30), Spot (7/+9) PC Observant), Survival (2_1/+1), Use Psionic Device (5/+7)
Familiar & Psicrystal (PC):
PC: Strength 1 Intelligence 10, Wisdom 10, Dexterity 14, Constitution --, Charisma 10, powers per book, has 2 personalities (Sympathetic and Observant) HP 21 AC 16, Touch 12 FF 14
Familiar: Dismissed for a year and a day
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Possessions:
65gp spectacles (+2 circumstance bonus on will saves vs. daze)
Robe of Resistance +5 (25000 GP)
Cloak of Charisma +4 (16000 GP)
Heward’s Handy haversack (2000 GP)
Bracers of Armor +2 (4000 GP)
Psionatrix of Telepathy (8000 GP)
Ring of Protection +2 (8000 GP)
Light Crossbow +1 (1000 GP)
2 potions of Blur (600 GP)
2 potions of Mage Armor (200 GP)
2 Vials of Drow Sleep Poison (150 GP) DC 13 for 2d4 hrs
Animated book of planes with cage (+1 circumstance Bonus to planar) (100 GP)
Boccob’s Blessed Book (12500 GP)
Circlet of Intelligence +6 (36000 GP)
Gloves of Dexterity +4 (16000 GP)
Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell (11000 GP) 3/day
Wand of Eagle’s Splendor (40ch) (4320 GP)
Wand of Magic Missiles CL 5 (3150 GP) (41ch) i
Pearl of Power 1st lvl (1000 GP)
Rope of Entanglement (21000 GP)

26084 GP, 27 sp
800 gold in fashion jewelry, Fancy Ettercap silk robes of green/gold/silver
Lt Riding horse w Saddle, small saddle bags, Saddle Blanket, Bit & Bridle, Bedroll Backpack, 1 large sack and 2 small sacks, flint and steel, 6 torches, 2 flasks of oil, 1 wk iron rations, 1 water skin, a set of common robes, 1 set of monastic robes and 1 set or traveling robes 1 pair riding boots, 1 pair of boots
 

Someone said:
On the comparison of psion uncarnate vs Unbodied, in both cases you lose 4 manifester levels, and have very similar abilities. Unbodied have better stats, but the psion uncarnate have the very important assume equipment ability, and you´re not forced to be a telepath.

Hmm... You make a convinving argument in favor of the Unbodied. It would be somewhat novel having a D&D character who, for once, didn't have to worry about phat lewt...

I think I'm probably going to go with Uncarnate, though, instead of Unbodied. I'd RATHER do the Unbodied, but I figure things will go easier if I can point the DM to the fact that I'm only using PC classes, as opposed to playing an incorporeal monster.
 

Asmor said:
Hmm... You make a convinving argument in favor of the Unbodied. It would be somewhat novel having a D&D character who, for once, didn't have to worry about phat lewt...

Uh oh... only a matter of time before someone suggests a Vow of Poverty Unbodied! Oh, wait, I just did. :o
 

Patlin said:
Uh oh... only a matter of time before someone suggests a Vow of Poverty Unbodied! Oh, wait, I just did. :o

I put together a VoP Fighter Psion Slayer Anarchic Initiate Warforged for a campaign that we will probably start up in fall 2007. Crushingly powerful. ;)

Then the future DM said that he was dropping BoED. :lol:
 

A Cerebremancer is fairly potent, but not broken. It suffers from the same disease that all dual-casters suffer: no access to the next highest spell slot compared to a focused, single-class caster. At 17th level, a Cleric or Wizard will be able to cast Gate to call in their local Solar, and that will single handedly end the encounter (a little difficult to imagine how it won't). The most Jadenian can muster is Finger of Death, which is somewhat underwhelming in comparison. Even without Gate cheese, we still have the rest of the 8th and 9th level spell lists to go through: and each of those spells is probably worth more than any two of your lower power spells.

While I like the Psion Uncarnate (a lot, I really do! :)), it is quite a bit underpowered. The PrC doesn't actually do anything worth the 4 manifester levels you loose until you get Uncarnate at level 10. And 4 levels is worth a lot for a main manifester. If you enter it, I recommend that you do so in the expectation that your powers will be weaker, and you should concentrate more on the infiltration aspects of a Psion Uncarnate: walking through doors in complete silence, instant disguises, and Bluff/Disguise/Sense Motive all as class skills. Don't expect your manifesting to be anything spectacular, and act more like a Bard when choosing powers and considering how you can use them (abliet, a Bard with some fairly significant blasting potential).

If you want usable PrC for Psionics, the Mind's Eye is a great (and free, the most important bit ;)) source (there are 3.5 updates of the most worthwhile ones), as is Hyperconcious and Untapped Potential. I strongly suggest you check out the last in particular!
 

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