D&D 5E Purple Dragon Knight = Warlord?

[Tony Vargas]

I think most people who want a warlord agree that currently, you only get about 60% of a warlord, no matter what you try to do in 5e. You just can't get a whole warlord, yet.

I question that 60%, but OK, if you're counting /everything/ not just uniquely-Warlordy or support-oriented things....

PDK suffers the same issue as the Battlemaster. It's only about 60% of what a Warlord does.

The PDK does two warlordy things, it restores hps via inspiration (1/rest, in a trivial amount), and it grants an ally an extra attack (at 10th level, 1/rest). The Battlemaster can do three things from 3rd level, but only 2/rest. Contrast that with a 1st level 4e Warlord, that, even coming from a game where the most versatile and flexible classes don't hold a candle to their 5e counterparts, can do five: two at-will, one 2/encounter, 1/encounter & 1/day. Is that 3 out of 5 where you're getting 60% for the Battlemaster?

Sure, you can make a Battlemaster that grants bonus HP, grants attacks and grants movement. All very warlordy stuff. But, at say, 8th level, he can only do it 5 times per short rest. If you presume 10 rounds of combat per rest period (not an unreasonable assumption), at best he's doing warlordy stuff half the time. That's at best.

At first level, even in 5e with 'Apprentice tier,' just about any class gets something vaguely class-defining it can do, and do all day. Fighters get their Style, Casters get cantrips, Monks unarmed attacks, etc. No Warlord class means doing nothing remotely Warlord-like until 3rd (for an archetype) or 4th (for a feat). In 4e, the Warlord got at-wills, so it could do something warlordly every round, from 1st level on. It was 100% Warlord in play, not just in concept or in theory or for the sake of argument. A PDK, at 3rd level, has one warlordish trick, 1/rest. A Battlemaster can choose up to 3 but only use em 2/rest.

For easy numbers, lets assume a 20 round day (a 4-encounter 4e day averaging 5 rounds, or a 6-encounter 5e day averaging a little over 3), that's estimating pretty low, which favors the 5e sub-classes, and we can assume the typical 2 short rests. The PDK plays Warlord 3 rounds out of 20. The Battlemaster, doubles that 6/20. Not looking good.

Then consider the range of possible characters. A PDK offers no choices - you get 2 warlordly abilities, one at 3rd, one at 10th. The sub-class represents one possible warlord-lite. The Battlemaster has 4 arguably-warlord-like maneuvers. He chooses 3 at 3rd level, so, if being as Warlordly as possible, that means there are 4 possible characters, based on the one maneuver each doesn't choose. Contrast that to even a 1st level 4e Warlord: choose one presence out of two (2 possibilities) * two at wills out of for (6 possibilities) * one out of four encounters (4) * one out of four dailies (4) = 192 possible combinations for your 1st-level Warlord.

 

[tuxgeo]

. . .

choose one presence out of two (2 possibilities) * two at wills out of for (6 possibilities) * one out of four encounters (4) * one out of four dailies (4) = 192 possible combinations for your 1st-level Warlord.

At that, you're understating the case for the options of the 4E Warlord class after it had been out for four years:

My final list of 4E Warlord stuff, based on the online compendium, has:
• 6 Commanding Presences: Bravura, Insightful, Inspiring, Resourceful, Skirmishing, and Tactical;
• 12 1st-level At-Will attack powers: Brash Assault, Commander's Strike, Direct the Strike, Furious Smash, Inevitable Wave, Intuitive Strike, Opening Shove, Paint the Bulls-Eye, Risky Shot, Rousing Assault, Viper's Strike, and Wolf Pack Tactics;
• 19 1st-level Encounter powers: Coordinated Defense, Diabolic Strategem, Guarding Attack, Hammer and Anvil, Hammer Formation, Leaf on the Wind, Luring Focus, Myrmidon Formation, Nimble Footwork, Overwhelming Force Trap, Pin Cushion, Powerful Warning, Provocative Order, Race the Arrow, Seize the Upper Hand, Shielded Assault, Tactician's Invitation, Vengeance Is Mine, and Warlord's Favor;
• 16 1st-level Daily powers: Bastion of Defense, Calculated Assault, Concentrated Attack, Create a Target, Destructive Surprise, Expert Timing, Fearless Rescue, Inspiring Shot, Lamb to the Slaughter, Lead by Example, Leader's Instincts, Lead the Attack, Orchestrated Offensive, Pin the Foe, Relentless Wounding, and White Raven Onslaught.

Just taking two At-Will attacks gives 12! / (2! * 10!) = 479001600 / (2 * 3628800) = 66 Combinations of At-Will attack powers. (That's not even considering Humans who get 3 At-Will attack powers instead of 2.)
Multiply it out: 6*66*19*16 = 120384 possible Warlord powers combinations at 1st level, not the 192 you listed.

Of course, that's counting lots of different sources over four years of release. It was "only" 192 when the PHB1 came out, but it grew.

 

[Hussar]

Fair enough. My 60% was pulled directly from my petoot. Not really my point to be honest. I agree with you.

 

[mellored]

. . .

At that, you're understating the case for the options of the 4E Warlord class after it had been out for four years:

My final list of 4E Warlord stuff, based on the online compendium, has:
• 6 Commanding Presences: Bravura, Insightful, Inspiring, Resourceful, Skirmishing, and Tactical;
• 12 1st-level At-Will attack powers: Brash Assault, Commander's Strike, Direct the Strike, Furious Smash, Inevitable Wave, Intuitive Strike, Opening Shove, Paint the Bulls-Eye, Risky Shot, Rousing Assault, Viper's Strike, and Wolf Pack Tactics;
• 19 1st-level Encounter powers: Coordinated Defense, Diabolic Strategem, Guarding Attack, Hammer and Anvil, Hammer Formation, Leaf on the Wind, Luring Focus, Myrmidon Formation, Nimble Footwork, Overwhelming Force Trap, Pin Cushion, Powerful Warning, Provocative Order, Race the Arrow, Seize the Upper Hand, Shielded Assault, Tactician's Invitation, Vengeance Is Mine, and Warlord's Favor;
• 16 1st-level Daily powers: Bastion of Defense, Calculated Assault, Concentrated Attack, Create a Target, Destructive Surprise, Expert Timing, Fearless Rescue, Inspiring Shot, Lamb to the Slaughter, Lead by Example, Leader's Instincts, Lead the Attack, Orchestrated Offensive, Pin the Foe, Relentless Wounding, and White Raven Onslaught.

Just taking two At-Will attacks gives 12! / (2! * 10!) = 479001600 / (2 * 3628800) = 66 Combinations of At-Will attack powers. (That's not even considering Humans who get 3 At-Will attack powers instead of 2.)
Multiply it out: 6*66*19*16 = 120384 possible Warlord powers combinations at 1st level, not the 192 you listed.

Of course, that's counting lots of different sources over four years of release. It was "only" 192 when the PHB1 came out, but it grew.

You could cut down on those abilities a lot. Such as having both ranged and melee version be the same. No need to have both Str and Dex versions. Overall a warlord can do 5 -10 depending on how you divide it.

And i don't know why your doing the math that way.

12 * 11 = 132 different combination of at-will powers. Though given the stat requirements, plenty of those where trap options.

 

[Marandahir]

4e 1st level characters ARE 3rd level 5e characters though. So… I'm not sure the point about Warlords not being available from start. Apprentice Tier might not be the place for Warlords.

 

[tuxgeo]

. . . And i don't know why your doing the math that way.

12 * 11 = 132 different combination of at-will powers. Though given the stat requirements, plenty of those where trap options.

That's 132 different permutations of 12 at-will powers taken 2 at a time. Doing it the way you show counts each combination twice. Example:

Warlord 'A' takes "Commander's Strike" as 1 of 12, then takes "Wolf Pack Tactics" as 1 of the remaining 11.
Warlord 'B' takes "Wolf Pack Tacktics" as 1 of 12, then takes "Commander's Strike" as 1 of the remaining 11.
Those two warlords have exactly the same combination of at-will attack powers, but they are counted as distinct the way you calculated it; and each such pairing is treated the same way: 1 of 12, then something else of the remaining 11; but if you reverse the order in which they are chosen. it seems at first glance that you get a different combination. It isn't really different, though.

To get an accurate number of the possible combinations (and, Yes, there are trap options included), you need to divide your count of 132 by 2, to eliminate the duplicates. If you do that, 132/2 = 66, which is the number I gave.

More info at the Combination page on Wikipedia.

If you want a quick way to calculate the Factorials, the "FACT()" function built into MS Excel provides that. For example, entering the following formula into a cell gives the factorial of 12:

=FACT(12)

 

[mellored]

That's 132 different permutations of 12 at-will powers taken 2 at a time. Doing it the way you show counts each combination twice.

right.

my mistake.

 

[Tony Vargas]

. . .

At that, you're understating the case for the options of the 4E Warlord class after it had been out for four years:
Just taking two At-Will attacks gives 12! / (2! * 10!) = 479001600 / (2 * 3628800) = 66 Combinations of At-Will attack powers. (That's not even considering Humans who get 3 At-Will attack powers instead of 2.)
Multiply it out: 6*66*19*16 = 120384 possible Warlord powers combinations at 1st level, not the 192 you listed.

Of course, that's counting lots of different sources over four years of release. It was "only" 192 when the PHB1 came out, but it grew.

Since 5e isn't ever likely to have a PH2 or Martial Power, PH1-only seems like a reasonable touchstone for comparison.

4e 1st level characters ARE 3rd level 5e characters though.

In some ways, yes. Then again, the conversion documents suggests that 4e levels are 2/3rds of a 5e level. In any case, the 1st vs 3rd comparison is still 192 permutations of the 4e PH1-only, 1st-level Warlord, vs 5 (PDK + 4 possible Battlemasters) warlord-like permutations of the 5e Fighter at 3rd level.

So… I'm not sure the point about Warlords not being available from start.

The Warlord is needed for a number of reasons, for some of them, like being an adequate primary or sole source of support functions for a party (to enable an all-martial or low-/no- magic campaign, a playstyle that is not currently well-supported) that means needing to exist at 1st level, yes.

Apprentice Tier might not be the place for Warlords.

The idea is that Warlord as a class name has been, and should remain, descriptive rather than indicating position or profession. If a character's talents are primarily in leadership skills, tactics, and the like, then Warlord is appropriate, from 1st level. The class doesn't imply position, authority or past accomplishment. Of course, a Background can provide those elements if they're desired - a Soldier has past experience in the military and holds a rank, a Noble has a position in society that comes with some authority.

Now, the PDK /does/ imply specific position & authority, as a Knight of Cormyr in the FR setting, and would actually have been a good candidate for a PrC, if PrCs had been in the works when AGSC was in development...

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Same reason they didn't make a bladesinger as a new class. They don't want to make ANY new classes.

Though they seem to have no problem making a sub-classes.

Yeah uh, we've kinda gotten explicit confirmation that a psionic class is in the pipeline. Bit hard to argue that they're completely against it. PrCs also present a sort of side-point that they're willing to do things other than sub- or full-classes, too.

 

[mellored]

Yeah uh, we've kinda gotten explicit confirmation that a psionic class is in the pipeline. Bit hard to argue that they're completely against it. PrCs also present a sort of side-point that they're willing to do things other than sub- or full-classes, too.

I'm sure they tried many times to put psionics into sub-classes first.

They are doing it, but very reluctant.