D&D 5E Purple Dragon Knight = Warlord?

[Remathilis]

That's a distinction that, for me, turns this from "blecch" to "Ah! Great!"

PDK's are A-OK for me!



The strictest RAW would imply that doesn't happen (unconscious condition explicitly mentions that the creature "is unaware of its surroundings"), but I'm cool with that being a little fungible from table to table. Someone else saying you can hear a PDK shout when you're dying doesn't stop me from ruling that you can't.

I'm with you, this is a fine distinction that allows me to accept this. Inspiration healing doesn't work on the unconscious; second wind doesn't work for fighters who are at 0, so this doesn't either; get medical help it magic one you fall.

Of course, if you want to rule that inspiring a fallen ally works, be my guest. We can both interpret this our own way and everyone wins. #rulingsnotrules

 

[mellored]

So I got to look at the pdk at my local game store (my copy comes in two weeks) and I saw that the rally ability only works on allies who can see and hear you, something an unconscious creature cannot. Ergo, no healing from 0.

Which makes sense for me, but will further annoy the warlord fans.

I think most fans are fine with "see and hear" for most of the warlord abilities.

Though, some also want some way to get someone conscious from 0, so you don't have to wait 1d4 hours if someone falls in battle. They can be 2 separate abilities.

From what i've gathered, we can appease the most people by...
Inspiring word: An ally who can see and hear you can spend a hit dice to gain X HP.
First Aid: You can take an action to perform first aid on an unconscious creature. They regain 1 HP. A creature can only benefit from this once per short rest.
Resuscitate: You can use first aid on a creature who died within the last minute, bringing them back to life.
The rest is mitigation abilities, with a sub-class that boost healing further.

Which i think will satisfy most people.

Though that still leaves some kind of lesser/greater restoration ability, which hasn't been discussed much. It would kinda suck to be in a martial party, get petrified, and need to run off to find a cleric. But it's also kinda hard to justify curing a petrification non-magically.
Mostly i'm not sure how prevalent that stuff is, or it's duration. The only 3 spells i see are contagion (7 days), flesh to stone (indefinite) and geas (30 days), but all 3 have plenty of time to mitigate them before they go into effect. So if that remains true for monsters and diseases, being both rare and having several changes to mitigate, then i don't see a need. I havn't seen anything like this in my game yet.

Mainly, are incurable curses, diseases, and ability score reductions more or less common then anti-magic zones?

Edit: Oh and a level 9 bestow curse (indefinate). Which only has 1 save.

 

[El Mahdi]

I think most fans are fine with "see and hear" for most of the warlord abilities.

I doubt it. I am not.

IMO, "See" is an unnecessary restriction. The ability to see is not a factor - or even mentioned - in any narrative of inspirational recovery I've seen or read. I can however, imagine inspiration purely by voice, even in complete darkness.

"Hear" should absolutely be a requirement though. However, I disagree that an unconscious character can't hear. Unconscious characters are "Unaware"; but the subconscious mind is by definition "Unaware", yet still "hears."

"Not able to Hear" is the Deafened condition.

I would eliminate "See" entirely. I wouldn't even require "Adjacent"; though I might allow for a bonus when adjacent (or penalty when not adjacent - I've been playing around with the idea of inspirational recovery requiring a saving roll).

From what i've gathered, we can appease the most people by...
Inspiring word: An ally who can see and hear you can spend a hit dice to gain X HP.
First Aid: You can take an action to perform first aid on an unconscious creature. They regain 1 HP. A creature can only benefit from this once per short rest.
Resuscitate: You can use first aid on a creature who died within the last minute, bringing them back to life.
The rest is mitigation abilities, with a sub-class that boost healing further.

Which i think will satisfy most people.

Appeasing people to the point that the class is no longer a Warlord renders the entire endeavor useless.

Developing a Warlord is for the benefit of Warlord fans, and not for appeasing those that aren't.

Appeasement is a horrible premise and a terrible design philosophy.

It would kinda suck to be in a martial party, get petrified, and need to run off to find a cleric. But it's also kinda hard to justify curing a petrification non-magically.

One of the features of a Warlord is to be able to run a "non-magical" game/group - not necessarily an all "martial party."

A game that had the possibility of petrification in it is most likely not a non-magical game. If the DM decided to use petrification anyways in a non-magical game, it would require a non-magical premise - a disease or toxin for example.

I don't recall seeing Warlord fans expressing a desire for a Warlord to heal disease or neutralize toxins, nor have I heard a narrative or trope where an inspirational effect neutralized disease or toxins. (Nor have I seen Warlord fans wanting a Warlord class to be able to reverse petrification.)

I believe that would fall under the premise of the Healer Feat - using a Healer's Kit or Herbalism (or equivalent). Maybe an adventure hook to find a rare flower or plant, or a knowledgeable enough Healer/Herbalist. But not as a Warlord ability.

Yes, the idea of the Warlord as replacement for the Cleric has been expressed, and to a certain extent it is part of the concept - but only to an extent - only within the narrative premise of a Warlord. A Warlord, narratively, doesn't do "everything" a Cleric can do.

 

[UnadvisedGoose445]

I doubt it. I am not.

IMO, "See" is an unnecessary restriction. The ability to see is not a factor - or even mentioned - in any narrative of inspirational recovery I've seen or read. I can however, imagine inspiration purely by voice, even in complete darkness.

"Hear" should absolutely be a requirement though. However, I disagree that an unconscious character can't hear. Unconscious characters are "Unaware"; but the subconscious mind is by definition "Unaware", yet still "hears."

"Not able to Hear" is the Deafened condition.

I would eliminate "See" entirely. I wouldn't even require "Adjacent"; though I might allow for a bonus when adjacent (or penalty when not adjacent - I've been playing around with the idea of inspirational recovery requiring a saving roll).

See, I'm personally glad they left this room for interpretation, in terms of what constitutes raising from 0 hp. Those that are vehemently opposed to it or can't make sense of it can rule it out, and those that have no issues with it working at 0 hp can feel more than free to rule that way.

Though, I did want to point out, the abilities in question say "see OR hear" not "and". Which makes sense to me, and even helps out those characters that might have been deafened or blinded but can still rely on the other sense to receive benefits. Also, all of the abilities described in the PDK have a range of 60 feet, not adjacent, which seems reasonable to me. Not sure if those stipulations you were commenting on were directly related to the PDK or to some of mellored's suggestions, but just thought I'd put it out there for clarity.

 

[Remathilis]

See, I'm personally glad they left this room for interpretation, in terms of what constitutes raising from 0 hp. Those that are vehemently opposed to it or can't make sense of it can rule it out, and those that have no issues with it working at 0 hp can feel more than free to rule that way.

Though, I did want to point out, the abilities in question say "see Or hear" not "and". Which makes sense to me, and even helps out those characters that might have been deafened or blinded but can still rely on the other sense to receive benefits. Also, all of the abilities described in the PDK have a range of 60 feet, not adjacent, which seems reasonable to me. Not sure if those stipulations you were commenting on were directly related to the PDK or to some of mellored's suggestions, but just thought I'd put it out there for clarity.

Thanks. I was working off memory, but it looks like the same limits bardic inspiration or inspiring leader have on awareness. I'd argue a sleeping or unconscious creature couldn't benefit from those either, there isn't the mental focus to do so (see: concentration and 0 HP).

 

[Bawylie]

Alright, so PDK counts or not? Buy the product or skip?

 

[Remathilis]

Alright, so PDK counts or not? Buy the product or skip?

Depends what you want out of your warlord...

Full-blown cleric replacer? No.
Fighter with leadership support powers? Yes.
AL legal? Probably.

The pdk is also one page of 160. What you think of the other 159 pages should determine your buy/skip.

 

[Bawylie]

Depends what you want out of your warlord...

Full-blown cleric replacer? No.
Fighter with leadership support powers? Yes.
AL legal? Probably.

The pdk is also one page of 160. What you think of the other 159 pages should determine your buy/skip.

Well that's the rub, isn't it?

I was never looking to replace a cleric with a fighter. So no real conflict with this concept. This replaces one type of fighter with another. Ok

But what's in the other pages? Do I care? Idk.

 

[Bawylie]

Next Q. What if you take PDK and one or two feats granting superiority dice + maneuvers. Where are we now? Good enough?

 

[Tony Vargas]

I doubt it. I am not.

IMO, "See" is an unnecessary restriction.

The ability to see is not a factor - or even mentioned - in any narrative of inspirational recovery I've seen or read.

I think seeing an inspiring act, alone, could work. As could just hearing an inspiring exhortation. As could remembering something inspiring that applies to the current situation.

However, I disagree that an unconscious character can't hear. Unconscious characters are "Unaware"; but the subconscious mind is by definition "Unaware", yet still "hears."

"Not able to Hear" is the Deafened condition.

Unconscious still doesn't equal Deaf, something it's strangely necessary to point out repeatedly in these threads.

I would eliminate "See" entirely. I wouldn't even require "Adjacent"; though I might allow for a bonus when adjacent (or penalty when not adjacent - I've been playing around with the idea of inspirational recovery requiring a saving roll).

See /or/ hear, makes more sense - there just needs to be some way to communicate enough to provoke an emotional response, so there should be other possibilities (touching a blinded & deafened character, for instance).

Though, I did want to point out, the abilities in question say "see Or hear" not "and". Which makes sense to me, and even helps out those characters that might have been deafened or blinded but can still rely on the other sense to receive benefits. Also, all of the abilities described in the PDK have a range of 60 feet, not adjacent,

Well, that's more reasonable, then. The arbitrary range in ft is consistent with 5e design.

I don't recall seeing Warlord fans expressing a desire for a Warlord to heal disease or neutralize toxins, nor have I heard a narrative or trope where an inspirational effect neutralized disease or toxins. (Nor have I seen Warlord fans wanting a Warlord class to be able to reverse petrification.)

Anything you might recover from on your own is something that you might recover from more readily or temporarily throw off the effects of with a little added inspiration. That could well include diseases and toxins, but not so much petrification or death.

Yes, the idea of the Warlord as replacement for the Cleric has been expressed, and to a certain extent it is part of the concept - but only to an extent - only within the narrative premise of a Warlord. A Warlord, narratively, doesn't do "everything" a Cleric can do.

No turning undead or flames strikes, for instance. Blade Barriers only metaphorically.

Next Q. What if you take PDK and one or two feats granting superiority dice + maneuvers. Where are we now? Good enough?

Good enough for a Purple Dragon Knight in the Forgotten Realms.

But, no, not for any other purpose. It's a still a fighter sub-class, still a character whose primary contribution is DPR, still can't begin to contribute enough support to keep a party going.