Push+Wall=save

[Victim]

When you use forced movement to a creature into a damaging wall or zone, do they get a save to prevent it? The DMG definition of Hindering Terrain (which allows saves) seems pretty broad. On the other hand, a created zone or wall isn't exactly a normal terrain feature.

 

[keterys]

Yes. I'm of mixed opinions, but if it hinders the movement or causes damage, you mostly get to save.

 

[Ravingdork]

HINDERING TERRAIN is a defined term on page 61 of the Dungeon Master's Guide.

Hindering Terrain
Hindering terrain prevents movement (or severely punishes it) or damages creatures that enter it, but allows line of sight.

Hindering terrain can be interesting because it encourages ranged attacks. You can shoot an arrow over hindering terrain, while it is impossible or risky to run through it to attack in melee.

Too much hindering terrain makes melee characters and monsters worthless. It is best used to protect a monster or two, or as a favorable defensive position that the PCs can exploit. Examples: Pits, deep water, lava, fire.

If it doesn't fit the above descriptions, it is not hindering terrain.

 

[James McMurray]

A damaging wall or zone would definitely fit that, although oddly not if it blocked line of sight. So a wall of invisible fire that deals 5 damage if you pass through it is hindering terrain, but a solid wall of flame so thick you can't see through it and so hot it deals 500 damage for touching it wouldn't be.

I'd be inclined to strike the "breaks line of sight" portion of that clause.

 

[Caliban]

I've missed the part where you get a save to avoid being forced into Hindering Terrain. I don't see it on page 61 of the DMG.

I don't see it in the section on Forced Movement in the PHB, just a rule about being getting a save if you are forced over a precipice or a pit. (page 286.)

 

[Victim]

I've missed the part where you get a save to avoid being forced into Hindering Terrain. I don't see it on page 61 of the DMG.

I don't see it in the section on Forced Movement in the PHB, just a rule about being getting a save if you are forced over a precipice or a pit. (page 286.)

IIRC, it's page 44.

 

[Caliban]

Ah. Would have been nice if they included that tidbit in the rules on forced movement in the PHB, or in the Hindering Terrain rules on page 61.

 

[Ravingdork]

I'd be inclined to strike the "breaks line of sight" portion of that clause.

I agree.

I've missed the part where you get a save to avoid being forced into Hindering Terrain. I don't see it on page 61 of the DMG.

I don't see it in the section on Forced Movement in the PHB, just a rule about being getting a save if you are forced over a precipice or a pit. (page 286.)

Here you go...

Hindering Terrain: Forced movement can force targets into hindering terrain (page 61). Targets forced into hindering terrain receive a saving throw immediately before entering the unsafe square they are forced into. Success leaves the target prone at the edge of the square before entering the unsafe square.

If the power that forced the target to move allows the creature that used the power to follow the target into the square that the target would have left, the creature can’t enter the square where the target has fallen prone.

If forced movement pushes a Large or larger creature over an edge, the creature doesn’t fall until its entire space is over the edge. On the creature’s next turn, it must either move to a space it can occupy or use a move action to squeeze into the smaller space at the edge of the precipice.

A DM can allow a power that pushes a target more than 1 square to carry the target completely over hindering terrain.

 

[Victim]

The interesting thing is that Wall of Fire is STILL an edge case as it deals damage and sort of blocks LoS.. The wall blocks LoS through it. However, it looks like a creature inside the wall would be able to see fine (in some directions).

 

[Goumindong]

A damaging wall or zone would definitely fit that, although oddly not if it blocked line of sight. So a wall of invisible fire that deals 5 damage if you pass through it is hindering terrain, but a solid wall of flame so thick you can't see through it and so hot it deals 500 damage for touching it wouldn't be.

I'd be inclined to strike the "breaks line of sight" portion of that clause.

The blocking of line of sight, while listed, is immaterial.

The wall of fire is simply a number of different effects. One of the effects is difficult terrain at 3 extra squares, one of the effects is damage and hindering terrain, one of the effects blocks line of sight and is obscuring terrain.

The fact that the wall is also difficult and obscuring does not break the fact that its hindering just as a power can have both the cold, and fire keywords.

The short answer is this "if you do not let enemies have a save when being forced into wizard effects that will damage them" the game becomes inexorably broken and everyone ought to just roll a wizard so you can maximize sustaining damage effects.