R&C Art, the Women of R&C

[Wyrmshadows]

How about this fella?

I say that "Pretty boys" fit D&D too. I mean, "Slender, androgynous and sexy" practically defines male elves. And then we have Tieflings...

Androgyny scares the hell out of many males of all cultures, it violates deeply held tribal taboos regarding gender identity.

I remember two guys I know who saw the movie Alexander and were freaked out by one character, one who was androgynous that Alexander had a fling with. The fact that the movie was bathed in bloodletting and conquest was fine but that androgynous guy...well that's just wrong.

Amazing how cultural values can be so screwed up that violent, imperialistic conquest won't make someone raise an eyebrow but someone who crosses gender lines a bit can make that same person's hair stand on end. Looking at this from the outside in, in the manner of an anthropologist, will allow one to see how odd these, unfortunately all too rarely questioned, value systems actually are.



Wyrmshadows

 

[Wyrmshadows]

I think that "hookerplate" has its place, however that place isn't in a quasi-medieval setting where folks where chain and plate regularly and such armor is completely impractical. Its silly, not because of some cheesecake factor, but because such armor, or lack thereof, would get you killed.

However in setting where heavy armor (or any real armor) would kill you because of the climate there is nothing inherently wrong with a female warrior wearing a chainmail bikini. Maybe she revels in her sexuality and martial power, maybe her culture sees nothing wrong with warriors of either gender wearing very skimpy battledress. Not every culture is as sexually repressed as America.



Wyrmshadows

 

[Aloïsius]

Not every culture is as sexually repressed as America.

But only a sexually repressed culture can device something like the hookerplate.
In place where a heavy armor would kill you (eg tropical climate) people use with very little clothing anyway. However, as soon as the tech level is high enough, women would use some kind of bras, because sports or fight without them can be very uncomfortable.

 

[Gloombunny]

However in setting where heavy armor (or any real armor) would kill you because of the climate there is nothing inherently wrong with a female warrior wearing a chainmail bikini. Maybe she revels in her sexuality and martial power, maybe her culture sees nothing wrong with warriors of either gender wearing very skimpy battledress. Not every culture is as sexually repressed as America.

A woman from a culture like that wouldn't wear a mail bikini. She'd probably wear skimpy clothing made of something lighter, like cloth or leather. And it wouldn't be a bikini, though it might have roughly similar coverage.

And Aloisius is completely correct in that only sexually-repressed cultures come up with crap like hookerplate and chain bikinis. It's only when nudity is seen as dirty that people try to sneak little peeks of it into nonsensical contexts.

How about this fella?

I'd hit it!

I'm in favor of fantasy cheesecake so long as it's not exclusively female and it doesn't crowd out the more sensible depictions of serious adventurers.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

Ah, there it is: Dragon #294.

This was the issue where Paizo decided to equalize the male cheesecake factor a little.

Incidentally, I personally like a lot of D&D art; chainmail bikinis are a longstanding staple of the genre. But I have had at least three female players who have actively disliked the art style, and another three or four who mocked it. Getting women into the game is a great idea in my opinion, and some art actively works against that.

I definitively see your point pirate cat, but i still think boob armor should stay, as it is too iconic my humble opinion. although all good things in moderation right?

oodly enough i really like the image you posted. it just screams Greek god. If cheesecake and Greek art seem to have alot in common in my humble opinion. This image has a touch of satyr but i still think its very Greek and very epic. I don't see why people have a problem with it. lets hope they never go to rome... eek.

*edit* ok i see one problem. he has a dark 1 o'clock shadow but his hair is blond. oh no Greek gods dye their hair!

 

[Moon-Lancer]

I do.

In fact, I remember one specifically complaining about the races spread in the 3e PHB. That all the women are in bras, and yet all of the men (sans the half-orc) have their chests fully covered.

your right. the bras should go. theirs nothing wrong with a nude sketch or illustration.

I believe Sundragon was the first to use the term "hookerplate."



From my perspective, that term is far more insulting than the art it's supposed to ridicule. The implication that a woman that dresses in a sexual manner is a whore or a prostitute is both priggish and mysoginistic.

Avalanche Press covers are overly cheesy and blatently childish, but that is NOT equal to actual promiscuity. All who declare that sexual=whore have a mindset that I would say is far worse than some publishing company's poor choice of juvenile artwork.

Paizo has done several covers with both subtle and overt sexual imagery (both cheesecake and beefcake), but at least to my eye, they have shown that it can be done in a tasteful and mature manner. The Dragon sun god cover has some sexual overtones, but by no means does it proscribe that he's a man-whore, that a guy that veiws it is gay, or that a woman that digs it is a slut...

...those thoughts strike me as the work of a shame-ridden viewer.

wow. I couldn't agree more.

That some male gamers can be offended by what is an excellent representation of a sun-god (who wouldn't have any concerns about the praticality of his dress) bespeaks volumes about their insecurities as opposed to the painting itself. That painting is not a sexualizing of anything more than it is a glorification of a dare a say it, a strikingly good, male physique. Yeah, he is a handsome man and I would love to have his build...there I said it. Only an insecure male cannot ackowledge masculine attractiveness.

Maybe the male ego is as weak as some say it is. I would like to think not, but hostile reactions to a painting such as this seems to validate this stereotype.

Much of greek art glorifies the masculine form. Michaelanglo's David is a great sculpture. A lot of males are afraid of admiring the male form because they think that if they do they must be homosexual. This of course is nothing more than a cultural hang-up that IMO it is a bad idea to pander to.

There is a wierd American hypersensitivity to anything that can be, even incorrectly, seen as sexualizing when it fact nudity is a very natural thing. A nudist beach is ironically one of the least sexy places on earth IMO. I went to a clothing optional beach with a girlfriend and outside of a couple women who looked great, most would have looked far, far better with some clothing on.

The ancient Celts, in some cases fought nude covered only in some paint. Native Americans were often very lightly clothed in battle (depending on the tribe and the climate of course).

As in many things, one's reaction regarding a piece of art often tells others more about the viewer than about the piece in question.

wow two posts, one right after the other. I don't want to sound like a broken record.... But I agree fully with this post too.

you two put my words to shame and my heart on fire.

 

[Hairfoot]

i still think boob armor should stay, as it is too iconic my humble opinion.

Thrashing one's wife for disobedience was also iconic at one time, but sometimes one is admired for adopting new icons.

I know how hyperbolic that is, but I'm too lazy right now to think of a better comparison.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

you mean the 70s and 80s? and isn't that a fallacy what you just did right their?


*edit* never mind, sorry. you admitted to as much.

 

[Wyrmshadows]

And Aloisius is completely correct in that only sexually-repressed cultures come up with crap like hookerplate and chain bikinis. It's only when nudity is seen as dirty that people try to sneak little peeks of it into nonsensical contexts.

I have to say I agree with you both. After considering it from that angle...I must say that you are probably correct.



Wyrmshadows

 

[Moon-Lancer]

I realize that if i supported sexy armor but didn't support guys who were attractive to woman i would be a Hippocrate, so I DO support sexy girls AND guys. I don't see whats wrong with that. I just don't understand why sexy is villainized and but violence never is. does anyone ever say ... who too much blood? what about the people who don't like blood?

Its pretty clear some of you guys run in different circles then I do, so i will concede that many women don't like sexy armor. Will any of you concede that their are a fairly substantial group of woman that do like this kind of armor?

I tend to find girls who like this kind of stuff at anime conventions, larps and other crazy events. I also find that it tends to be the ones that can pull off boob armor themselves.