D&D 5E [+] Rangers should have monster fighting spells equivalent to Paladin's Smite spells. Discuss!

[Rocker26a]

I'm going to draft up some spells later this week and come here with them! I have a LOT of ideas! THis is a very fruitful concept, thank you for it!

That'd be great! Good luck with it! And you're welcome!

 

[Rocker26a]

If rangers have free spells know or can switch spells daily, then the issue mostly disappears

These are gettable things (though likely never from WOTC)! In particular, free spells known are a part of my homebrewing.
It's a similar premise to those who say "Warlocks should just get Eldritch Blast for free and not have it count against their cantrips", I've been messing with a list of the "core spells" for Ranger. Spells that everyone expects a Ranger to have. Hunter's Mark, Pass Without Trace, etc.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I did realize over the course of this thread that actually litigating on what creatures the spells work on would be a misstep, yeah. It just seemed like it would be sensible when feeling out the shape of it in my head.

Yeah I had the same thought when I was working on Banes for my Ranger, which are basically like what you’re doing but not spells. Instead they are at-will but situational, and spell slots can boost the effect.

But initially I thought “undead” makes sense as a target, and eventually realized it didn’t work as well as focusing on tactics and traits of enemies.

The current build does have “vulnerable target: X” where X is a creature type, and those creatures have disadvantage on the saving throw vs the effect.

Also a lot of Banes are things that make the whole group more effective.

Monster abilities are not common enough amongst type for that to work outside of size, speed, and weapons/armor prof.

“Gaining hit points while the effect lasts” is not exactly an uncommon situation.

“Speed is halved and if it has a fly speed, it cannot fly higher than its speed off the ground without taking damage” shuts down every flying monsters.

There are a ton of creatures with breath weapons.

Tons of creatures that are large or larger, or that rely on moving fast (spell that makes target make a Dex save vs prone any time they move more than 15ft), creatures that turn invisible, creatures with resistence to b/p/s damage, or to poison damage, etc

There are a ton of traits and abilities to target that will come up plenty often to be worth a spell.

 

[Undrave]

There's definitely some merit to that of course, though that might then limit your ability to affect multiple creatures. If you're fighting 3 Trolls (y'know, like in that one funny book), you ideally want to cut off all their regeneration if you're the guy with the spell specifically for that.

Oh I see! That's a good point... I was thinking of the Ranger as being more of a duelist in this case, taking out HIS favoured enemy in one on one combat.

Hm... How about we make the anti-regeneration a zone then? We could theme it as a sort of trap and offer the option to set it up in advance so it can lay dormant for a while. Then, it could be triggered manually by the Ranger or by an instance of healing happening in the zone. Then, nobody can gain hit points when starting their turn in the zone and creatures of your choice in the zone take necrotic damage at the start of each turn? Fire damage could also be thematically interesting since it's the trolls normal weakness but at this point it's like a Flame Sphere that can't move.

Don't know if it could work the same on all of my suggested spells but it could be interesting for that one.

 

[Minigiant]

Gaining hit points while the effect lasts” is not exactly an uncommon situation.

“Speed is halved and if it has a fly speed, it cannot fly higher than its speed off the ground without taking damage” shuts down every flying monsters.

There are a ton of creatures with breath weapons.

Tons of creatures that are large or larger, or that rely on moving fast (spell that makes target make a Dex save vs prone any time they move more than 15ft), creatures that turn invisible, creatures with resistence to b/p/s damage, or to poison damage, etc

There are a ton of traits and abilities to target that will come up plenty often to be worth a spell.

There aren't a ton of traits that come of often every few adventure day. Especially if you are in a group that runs few encounters/day or don't do random encounters.

There are really only a few: Sizes, Speeds, HP, AC, resistance/immunity, and armor/weapons. Not even vulnerability.

It's not an impossible task. But an "anti-regeneration" spell would be flavorful but useless. An "anti-healing" spell might end up being more useful with a slight flavor it. An "anti-breath weapon" spell would cool but be useless in a vampire's mansion but and anti-flight spell would work.

5e was designed too "anti-structure" for hard specifics to work

 

[Shardstone]

There aren't a ton of traits that come of often every few adventure day. Especially if you are in a group that runs few encounters/day or don't do random encounters.

There are really only a few: Sizes, Speeds, HP, AC, resistance/immunity, and armor/weapons. Not even vulnerability.

It's not an impossible task. But an "anti-regeneration" spell would be flavorful but useless. An "anti-healing" spell might end up being more useful with a slight flavor it. An "anti-breath weapon" spell would cool but be useless in a vampire's mansion but and anti-flight spell would work.

5e was designed too "anti-structure" for hard specifics to work

These spells will do more then that, they will usually do damage as well or inflict a condition, etc, not just the base effect tailored to those ideas.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I have used zero regenerating monsters nor trolls in my last 3 sessions because the thematically chosen enemy doesn't regenerate HP nor use giants. Evil elven nobles and villainous shark cultists.

And I assume your ranger PCs have spells that are useful regardless of circumstance. Having bonus spells that are more targeted would not be a loss.

Back in edition when rangers could swap out spells daily, a spell that stops Regeneration could be a nice niche pick after using detective work to discover the enemy or altering to reoccurring enemies. But as semi-permanent class features, feats, and 5e known spell casting, the monster design of 5e monsters are too "freeform" and not standardized to use.

The Ranger will prepare spells in the revised phb. Not only that, we are inherently discussing houserules and homebrew, so why insist on “this can’t work” rhetoric instead of proposing that prepared Spellcasting would help the Ranger deal with a wide range of critters more effectively?

If every dragon had Dragonic Ancestry or every undead had Undead Fortitude or every giant had Giant size maybe triggering out monster traits might work.

Every dragon has a breath weapon and fly speed. Every Giant has a size large or larger. Undead are poorly designed and should all have some negative effect from sunlight and radiant damage, but since they don’t all share that (which is, again, bad design) you don’t try to make an “anti-undead” spell.

The whole point I’ve been making revolves around not focusing on creature type.

There aren't a ton of traits that come of often every few adventure day. Especially if you are in a group that runs few encounters/day or don't do random encounters.

There are really only a few: Sizes, Speeds, HP, AC, resistance/immunity, and armor/weapons. Not even vulnerability.

And the Ranger has other spells.

It's not an impossible task. But an "anti-regeneration" spell would be flavorful but useless. An "anti-healing" spell might end up being more useful with a slight flavor it. An "anti-breath weapon" spell would cool but be useless in a vampire's mansion but and anti-flight spell would work.

Spells shouldn’t be useful in every encounter or every session. Full stop.

5e was designed too "anti-structure" for hard specifics to work

False.

 

[Rocker26a]

It's not an impossible task. But an "anti-regeneration" spell would be flavorful but useless. An "anti-healing" spell might end up being more useful with a slight flavor it. An "anti-breath weapon" spell would cool but be useless in a vampire's mansion but and anti-flight spell would work.

Yeah, I mean. I don't think it's even desirable for these spells to be useful in every single session or combat. From a flavour standpoint at least. Like, the idea for me is that, knowing which would be helpful is your reward for playing up to your class identity over the course of adventuring and investigating. You produce these spells when you know your enemy, and the cards are on the table. This is like, when Arnold has covered himself in mud to fight the Predator. Or whatever.
Unless you're playing like, a Domains of Dread game, that's not a beat you're gonna be hitting around the clock.

 

[TheSword]

The answer to me is to make hunters mark better and let it increase by level and throw a few more spells like it into the mix.

Then, as has been suggested have rangers not need somantic or verbal components to cast spells.

 

[Rocker26a]

Oh I see! That's a good point... I was thinking of the Ranger as being more of a duelist in this case, taking out HIS favoured enemy in one on one combat.

That is what they're theoretically set up as by WOTC, but I don't really think it works, thematically or mechanically.
Mechanically, if you're playing a character that only cares about killing one guy... Well you should play a Paladin and Smite them.
Beyond that, I dunno! I feel like Ranger has more identity fighting the horde (or at least just a handful more guys than you'd expect one individual to handle), generally speaking. Aragorn fighting the Nazgul at Amon Sul or whatever.

Hm... How about we make the anti-regeneration a zone then? We could theme it as a sort of trap and offer the option to set it up in advance so it can lay dormant for a while. Then, it could be triggered manually by the Ranger or by an instance of healing happening in the zone. Then, nobody can gain hit points when starting their turn in the zone and creatures of your choice in the zone take necrotic damage at the start of each turn? Fire damage could also be thematically interesting since it's the trolls normal weakness but at this point it's like a Flame Sphere that can't move.

Don't know if it could work the same on all of my suggested spells but it could be interesting for that one.

Could work, potentially! Don't get me wrong, affecting multiples in a radius/zone is only what I'd personally be thinking with this, don't want to litigate what you should do with your ideas!