Reach Weapons - a thought...

[RUMBLETiGER]

It doesn't matter if the O squares are threatened or not. (Most reach weapons wielded by someone in the X position won't threaten O squares).

All that matters is that the person is leaving an = square, which is threatened. They could be moving out, moving in. moving from one = square to another, it doesn't matter. If they're moving more than 5 feet in the round, and at any point in that movement they leave a threatened square, they provoke an AoO.

If you read what I wrote, we're saying the exact same thing.

Oh... I think you guys just taught me something.

So, If I get this right. If a weapon has both 10' and 5' attack, like the spiked chain, moving out of the 10' range to adjacent to the opponent at 5', is technically moving out of the further threatened square into another threatened square, and therefore provokes A..? Because that would be cool.

Is that not the same for a reach weapon that only threatens at 10' range, but not up close, like the polearm? Because moving out of the 10' threat range to adjacent still technically is leaving a threatened square, however the weapon cannot hit you anymore because you're too close?

 

[TKDB]

Oh... I think you guys just taught me something.

So, If I get this right. If a weapon has both 10' and 5' attack, like the spiked chain, moving out of the 10' range to adjacent to the opponent at 5', is technically moving out of the further threatened square into another threatened square, and therefore provokes A..? Because that would be cool.

Is that not the same for a reach weapon that only threatens at 10' range, but not up close, like the polearm? Because moving out of the 10' threat range to adjacent still technically is leaving a threatened square, however the weapon cannot hit you anymore because you're too close?

Actually, both cases would allow you the AoO. AoOs provoked by movement are made before the provoking movement occurs, so with a reach polearm you'd be hitting them while you're in the square 10' away from you.

An attack of opportunity "interrupts" the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character’s turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character’s turn).

This article (Rules of the Game: All About Attacks of Opportunity (Part One)) clarifies:

Resolve an attack of opportunity before you resolve the action that triggered it, not after. Sometimes, the attack of opportunity will prevent the triggering action (such as when the attack of opportunity proves lethal to a moving character). If someone tries something that provokes an attack of opportunity, the attack of opportunity happens first.

Incidentally, with respect to the initial topic of this thread, that article also claims that entering an opponent's square always provokes an AoO:

Common Misconception #1: You provoke an attack of opportunity when you're moving and you enter a threatened square.​

• You provoke an attack of opportunity when you leave a threatened square, not when you enter it. Sometimes you'll provoke an attack of opportunity when moving closer to a foe (see the section on Reach below), and you'll also do so if you try to enter a square that a foe already occupies.

Granted, I don't think this counts as true RAW, but it is a fairly official and reliable source, and given that this rule is strongly suggested (if not explicitly stated) in the actual RAW, I'd be inclined to use it.

 

[Water Bob]

So, If I get this right. If a weapon has both 10' and 5' attack, like the spiked chain, moving out of the 10' range to adjacent to the opponent at 5', is technically moving out of the further threatened square into another threatened square, and therefore provokes A..? Because that would be cool.

That is correct. Every time a foe moves out of a threatened square, an attack of opportunity exists.

Consider, Ralph ("R")and his longsword, with the 5' reach....


ABC
DRE
FGH

Let's say Ralph is fighting Bob, and Bob is in square "B". Then, Charlie, Bob's ally, moves past the two of them. Charlies moves through squares C, E, and H, right past the two of them.

This creates three Attacks of Opportunity for Ralph.

AoO 1 - As Charlies leaves square C.

AoO 2 - As Charlie leaves square E.

AoO 3 - As Charlie leaves square H.



The Attack of Opportunity is provided just before Charlie leaves the square, so Ralph could take his AoO on Charlie when Charlie was in square C, E, or H.

Now, characters are limited to only one AoO per round unless the character has a Feat that says otherwise.

So, if Ralph doesn't have Combat Reflexes and a high DEX, he's only getting one AoO in a round. Provided he hasn't already used his one AoO in this round, Ralph could take the AoO on Charlie in any of the three squares C, E, or H.



AoO's work the same with reach weapons.

ABCDE
FGHJK
LMXNO
PQRST
UVWYZ

X = Character with Reach weapon that threatens 10' away. He threatens the ABCDE, EKOTZ, UVWYZ, AFLPU ring.

Let's say X has initiative and prepares a ready action for a foe to attack him. The foe is coming straight for him, through square C to square H to engage X in melee.

This means X would get two attacks. His Ready Action is tripped when the foe approaches, so that's one attack. And, X gets an Attack of Opportunity on his foe when the foe leaves square C.

If X's weapon threatened both 10' and 5' around the character, and X had the Combat Reflexes Feat and a DEX of at least DEX 14, then he's till only get 2 attacks.

He's get one when his Ready Action was tripped.

He'd get his first Attack of Opportunity as his foe left square C.

Even though he's got Combat Reflexes and a DEX with a +2 modifier, he doesn't get the attack of opportunity on the foe in front of him until the foe leaves the square.

 

[Water Bob]

Incidentally, with respect to the initial topic of this thread, that article also claims that entering an opponent's square always provokes an AoO:


Granted, I don't think this counts as true RAW, but it is a fairly official and reliable source, and given that this rule is strongly suggested (if not explicitly stated) in the actual RAW, I'd be inclined to use it.

I knew I had read that (it's in my core Conan RPG rulebook somewhere). I just couldn't find it to back up what I'd said.

If you think about it, though, it's really the same thing.

ABC
DXE
FGH

X = Your character

If a foe is in square B, whether it leaves B or enters square X, it's an Attack of Opportunity. It's the same thing.

Unless....you're thinking the rule states that there are two AoO opportunities....one leaving square B and one entering square X. But, I don't think so...as I can also point to a rule that says you cannot occupy the same square with a conscious foe.

 

[Grand Poobah]

Just to note, you only get one AoO against a foe if the action that triggered it is continuous even if you can make more than 1 AoO per round.

Example: you are facing off against an orc who decides it wants to move past you to attack a wizard in the rear. You have combat reflexes and +1 DEX bonus so are allowed 2 AoO per round (you are Y the orc is O and A and B are the Threatened squares the orc is going to move through).

XOX
XYA
XXB
XXC

The orc provokes an AoO as he starts his move from his beginning square O. If you choose to attack it at that point you don't get to make any further AoOs against the orc despite his move from A to B and from B to C also being eligable for an AoO because they form part of the same action.

If, however, you managed to trip him with your first AoO and the orc attempted to stand, as that is a seperate action to his initial move, you could make another AoO at the point he began to get up (in 3.5 that is).

 

[Grand Poobah]

Double post. Stupid iphone!

 

[TKDB]

That is correct. Every time a foe moves out of a threatened square, an attack of opportunity exists.

Consider, Ralph ("R")and his longsword, with the 5' reach....


ABC
DRE
FGH

Let's say Ralph is fighting Bob, and Bob is in square "B". Then, Charlie, Bob's ally, moves past the two of them. Charlies moves through squares C, E, and H, right past the two of them.

This creates three Attacks of Opportunity for Ralph.

AoO 1 - As Charlies leaves square C.

AoO 2 - As Charlie leaves square E.

AoO 3 - As Charlie leaves square H.

Actually, Ralph only gets one AoO, even with Combat Reflexes; a single movement can only provoke one AoO. However, he could make that AoO at any of the three points you mentioned.

If you have the Combat Reflexes feat you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.

I knew I had read that (it's in my core Conan RPG rulebook somewhere). I just couldn't find it to back up what I'd said.

If you think about it, though, it's really the same thing.

ABC
DXE
FGH

X = Your character

If a foe is in square B, whether it leaves B or enters square X, it's an Attack of Opportunity. It's the same thing.

Unless....you're thinking the rule states that there are two AoO opportunities....one leaving square B and one entering square X. But, I don't think so...as I can also point to a rule that says you cannot occupy the same square with a conscious foe.

I was thinking more in terms of the corner case of creatures with a 0-ft reach. They wouldn't get an AoO for the foe leaving square B, because they don't threaten that square, but they WOULD still get an AoO for the foe entering square X.
There are actually several ways to move into a conscious opponent's space that would provoke AoO -- if you're three or more size categories larger than the opponent (or vice-versa), if you're Tiny size or smaller (regardless of the size of the other creature), using certain special attacks like bull rush and overrun, and through certain feats like Low Blow -- but I would probably rule that this falls under the same rule of only one AoO per movement, so it wouldn't be relevant except in the case of creatures with 0 reach. You could make a strong argument that by RAW you would in fact get two AoO (assuming you're actually capable of making multiple AoOs), but I feel that's a bit excessive.

 

[kitcik]

It is fairly well agreed upon that reach weapons are superior in every sense to nonreach weapons, and that the best weapon (at least, in core) is the spiked chain. In my opinion, the next best is the Halberd.

Kusari Gama is 2nd
Light, threatens at reach and adjacent, can trip

 

[Sekhmet]

Kusari Gama is 2nd
Light, threatens at reach and adjacent, can trip

I was unaware of this gem. Oriental Adventures?

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

I was unaware of this gem. Oriental Adventures?

It is. p.72-73.

Also Here.