D&D 5E Ready action before combat starts? Advantage on initiative?

[Paraxis]

Thanks, Paraxis! Good thinking. That may work as well.

Let's change the situation a bit...

The first room is empty (no bandits), but the door to the second room (with bandits) is locked and the party's rogue fails to pick the lock.
The party proceeds to bash down the door, alerting the bandits in the next room.

There wouldn't be a roll for initiative before the door is bashed down, and neither side would be surprised; the bandits hear the party bashing at the door and the party is preparing for whatever lies on the other side. In this case, I think MerricB's suggestion of using the surprise mechanic in order to give the bandits the appropriate edge over the party makes sense here too.

Any thoughts?

In this case I wouldn't use surprise for the heroes, possible surprise for the bandits if they hide in the room and wait to ambush them if they have time to do so would depend on the DM and how long it took to pick the lock and break down the door.

But if neither side tries to hide or act with stealth there is no surprise in 5th edition.

I can see a DM imposing disadvantage sometimes, or grant advantage sometimes, to initiative checks it all depends.

 

[Smoo]

I don't disagree with any of the suggestions so far in this thread, they all seem valid. However, it's also perfectly valid to allow a readied action before combat begins. Why? Because it clearly passes the "common sense" filter.

If the bandits in the next room hear the party, then there's no reason that one of them couldn't train a crossbow at the door ready to fire at the first person to come through it. And there's no reason to require that he delay his attack until the resolution of the initiative mechanic, possibly losing his advantage by a bad roll. He has information and he wants to act on it.

Does ruling it a surprise round for the bandits accomplish the same thing? Probably, and it's a good way to adjudicate it. But I don't think you should remove a potential problem-solving tool from the kit by saying "it's not appropriate to take the 'ready' action before initiative is rolled". There are certainly situations where it could be plenty appropriate.

 

[Hriston]

In general, it's not appropriate to take the "ready" action before initiative is rolled. Initiative is, in fact, the determination of who shoots first when both sides are aware of the other. You might decide the party are surprised, but that would be the mechanic to handle it.

Cheers!

The problem with the scenario then is not the bandit readying his crossbow, but the fact that initiative hasn't yet been rolled. If someone is aware of a threat, and is taking measures to counter such a threat, then we are already in a combat encounter and initiative should already have been rolled.

 

[Smoo]

That post was kind of vague, so let me give an example from this week. (Spoiler from Rise of Tiamat)
[sblock]The party was doing Xonthal's Tower from Rise of Tiamat, specifically the Chuul Pool. The chuuls are programmed to attack if somebody moves the gem (in effect they have a standing readied action, but that's not the readied action I'm referring to). Now, the party has every suspicion that as soon as they touch that gem, all hell is going to break loose. The archers expect something to come out of that pool, and they want to attack it if it does.[/sblock]

One could simply roll initiative (a giveaway), and then any party members who roll higher could ready actions then. Mechanically sound, but a little sterile. I enjoyed it a lot more letting the party announce readied actions. Then when they triggered the action, the monsters launched their attack (a more dramatic start to the encounter than rolling initiative), but the readied actions also go off (the players feel satisfied for good planning). Then roll initiative. Combat starts already in 5th gear.

 

[Ellsworth]

...it's also perfectly valid to allow a readied action before combat begins. Why? Because it clearly passes the "common sense" filter.

If the bandits in the next room hear the party, then there's no reason that one of them couldn't train a crossbow at the door ready to fire at the first person to come through it. And there's no reason to require that he delay his attack until the resolution of the initiative mechanic, possibly losing his advantage by a bad roll. He has information and he wants to act on it.

These were my thoughts at first as well.

 

[Ellsworth]

...let me give an example from this week...

Great example, but isn't that a spoiler?

 

[Smoo]

Great example, but isn't that a spoiler?

My bad. Fixed. Thanks.

 

[Ellsworth]

If someone is aware of a threat, and is taking measures to counter such a threat, then we are already in a combat encounter and initiative should already have been rolled.

Is it considered a combat encounter if one side is aware of a threat but the other is not? Shouldn't a combat encounter proceed when both sides are aware of a threat? If the side that is aware of a threat loses initiative, what would be the course of action for the side that is not aware of a threat after it wins initiative?

 

[Ellsworth]

My bad. Fixed. Thanks.

I just realized my reply to your post was a re-post of the spoiler. Oops. Fixed my post too.

 

[MerricB]

Is it considered a combat encounter if one side is aware of a threat but the other is not? Shouldn't a combat encounter proceed when both sides are aware of a threat? If the side that is aware of a threat loses initiative, what would be the course of action for the side that is not aware of a threat after it wins initiative?

It can be: that's what the surprise round is, after all, when one side is aware but the other is not and the first side wants to attack the other!. That last is important...

Here are a couple of examples:

The bandits are aware of the party, but the party is not aware of the bandits when they open the door. In this case the bandits have surprise. If the party rolls well for initiative, they still can't act during the first round, but they're not quite as flat-footed as a group that rolls poorly and let the bandits have two attacks in a row!

The bandits are aware of the party, as the party is aware of the bandits. The bandits are aiming their crossbows at the door... it opens! Roll initiative; the bandits have a chance of letting their concentration lapse for a moment and thus acting after the party. (The party should generally be ready for trouble when going through doors, as it often finds them!)

Cheers!