D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D

[jgsugden]

If you want to provide something useful, finnd soimething from the 1980s that is not problematic under today's standards and highlight why it is acceptable today. That would be great to see.

Almost everything is flawed from that era in one way (many ways) or another.

 

[BookTenTiger]

If you want to provide something useful, finnd soimething from the 1980s that is not problematic under today's standards and highlight why it is acceptable today. That would be great to see.

Almost everything is flawed from that era in one way (many ways) or another.

That's a great idea for a different thread!

 

[el-remmen]

Did you expect the authors to know better 30+ years ago, or is this a more historical critique so that mistakes of the past are not repeated?

I ask this because when someone says "this product is problematic" and it was authored a generation ago, my first response is "well, of course it was". Assuming that you're not trying to exercise your batting arm, what insights are you looking to develop?

The specific ways in which a text is problematic can be/frequently is as enlightening as the generic understanding that such problems were (more) common back then and critical analysis provides insight both on the specific assumptions within the context of that time and thinking about how those assumptions have and have not changed/evolved/manifested in new ways currently.

For example of the former, it is very common for Eurocentric idea of other cultures and ancient non-Euro civilizations as "backwards" or incapable of European achievements for at least the last 500 years. However, in the 1970s the notion of "ancient astronauts" became a very popular way to explain/explore the achievements of these non-white ancient civilizations because aliens doing it is somehow more acceptable than those peoples having a capability Europeans couldn't understand. Why this way at that time? (Well, I won't go into it - but reflecting on the specifics could tell us something about the 70s and how those ancient astronaut ideas still resonate in the discourse today.

Edit: As a comics scholar, who frequently writes about issues of race, gender, identity, and representation in superhero comics, I just thought I'd take a crack at the question, because the point of such work is not just to identify that something is problematic, but to think about it in multiple productive contexts.

 

[Voadam]

I was so disappointed the contents did not match the cool promise of Conan the King Orc on the cover or the blurbs from the back, going instead with childish stupid humanoid humor throughout for the most part instead.

And the art visuals of dumb orcs including punk ones with spikes through their heads and boomboxes plus special smelly feet military squads was just offputting.

A big miss for the most part.

The Orc King has some cool elements, but the good stuff here was pretty buried.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

If you want to provide something useful, finnd soimething from the 1980s that is not problematic under today's standards and highlight why it is acceptable today. That would be great to see.

Almost everything is flawed from that era in one way (many ways) or another.

I don't think that's inherently more useful but I often discuss Time of the Dragon, the 1989 boxed set which introduced the Taladas setting, and which is an amazing example for discussions because it both contains some really "ahead of its time" stuff, and some quite problematic stuff, and the art is hilariously waaaaaaaaaaaaay more problematic than the text, even as a kid I thought some of the art was a bit... inappropriate. Like the steppe barbarian galloping away with a naked lady draped over his horse, or a bunch of hooded big-nosed gnomes carrying a very pale half-clad unconscious lady above them (!!!).

These are some of the few illustrations of women in the main books too. Despite the text actually have a lot of discussion of female characters, including some cultures where for example only women are allowed to become wizards (the same culture also features probably the first neutral or positive exploration of transgender identification in D&D, as it notes that someone born male can identify as female and live/dress as a woman, and be treated as one, and will be allowed to become a wizard).

Wow in fact looking through the main book (not the cards that came with it), for women we have:

3x cooking in heavy clothing and headdress
1x unconscious and naked and being carried off by steppe horseman
1x unconscious and half-clad being carried off by big-nosed gnomes
1x unconscious in bikini in faintly suggestive pose in front of Mind-Flayer
1x handing out food/drink at a market
1x being harassed by some guy and clearly not liking it
2x actual adventurer with weapon and everything! (both right at end of book)

This is compared to dozens, maybe over a hundred male characters being pictured, at least half of them armed and competent-looking.

The text is much better, as noted, but in 1989 I guess the art wasn't keeping up with the text (it must be said I love the style of the art, I just wish it was so... yikes).

 

[billd91]

The specific ways in which a text is problematic can be/frequently is as enlightening as the generic understanding that such problems were (more) common back then and critical analysis provides insight both on the specific assumptions within the context of that time and thinking about how those assumptions have and have not changed/evolved/manifested in new ways currently.

For example of the former, it is very common for Eurocentric idea of other cultures and ancient non-Euro civilizations as "backwards" or incapable of European achievements for at least the last 500 years. However, in the 1970s the notion of "ancient astronauts" became a very popular way to explain/explore the achievements of these non-white ancient civilizations because aliens doing it is somehow more acceptable than those people have a capability Europeans couldn't understand. Why this way at that time? (Well, I won't go into it - but reflecting on the specifics could tell us something about the 70s and how those ancient astronaut ideas still resonate in the discourse today.

It's also worth noting that picture studies have been able to piece together of the pre-Columbian Americas have improved dramatically in just the last 30 years alone. If you can find a copy of 1491 by Charles Mann in your local library, it's well worth checking out.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

It's also worth noting that picture studies have been able to piece together of the pre-Columbian Americas have improved dramatically in just the last 30 years alone. If you can find a copy of 1491 by Charles Mann in your local library, it's well worth checking out.

This is true, but there was a ton known by the 1960s and 1970s that was absolutely available to the public and even was increasingly reflected in pop-culture mediums like film, that continued to be ignored by a lot of people for unclear reasons.

 

[Silvercat Moonpaw]

I am in complete support of this thread and all critical examinings of things from the past!

 

[Malmuria]

Did you expect the authors to know better 30+ years ago, or is this a more historical critique so that mistakes of the past are not repeated?

I ask this because when someone says "this product is problematic" and it was authored a generation ago, my first response is "well, of course it was". Assuming that you're not trying to exercise your batting arm, what insights are you looking to develop?

The linked product on dtrpg ends with this disclaimer

We (Wizards) recognize that some of the legacy content available on this website does not reflect the values of the Dungeons & Dragons franchise today. Some older content may reflect ethnic, racial, and gender prejudice that were commonplace in American society at that time. These depictions were wrong then and are wrong today. This content is presented as it was originally created, because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed. Dungeons & Dragons teaches that diversity is a strength, and we strive to make our D&D products as welcoming and inclusive as possible. This part of our work will never end.

It's great that that's obvious to you. But many people are up in arms about it, claiming that there could never be a possible relationship between tropes in fantasy literature, dnd included, and real life stereotypes.

Impromptu Stream with Ed Greenwood, Tim Kask, & TSR CCO

Hi Everyone, I was invited to a impromptu live stream with Ed Greenwood, and Tim Kask. The topics included a post by Tim Kask on his Facebook regarding recent events in the RPG community, and I answered many questions regarding TSR and the events in June. We also discussed the situation with...

www.enworld.org

Beyond that, I'd be curious to know exactly what sources and tropes influenced the creators of mystara or other fantasy worlds. It's interesting to see how various figures are developed and how they change over time.

 

[CleverNickName]

It's great that that's obvious to you. But many people are up in arms about it, claiming that there could never be a possible relationship between tropes in fantasy literature, dnd included, and real life stereotypes.

You say "many," but it looks more like "a handful" to me. Or maybe "dozens" if I'm feeling generous. The wide majority of people seem fine with it, if they bother to form an opinion at all.

Beyond that, I'd be curious to know exactly what sources and tropes influenced the creators of mystara or other fantasy worlds. It's interesting to see how various figures are developed and how they change over time.

Same here. The history of our hobby is fascinating to me, and I especially like reading about how (and why) it has changed over time. Especially from a trained, academic point of view.