D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D

[MGibster]

The standard disclaimer that they have put on these older products, combined with their demonstrated efforts to do better going forward, is a good start. "What's next," you ask? The next step should be to ask marginalized communities if these steps are good enough, and if not, ask them how they could do better.

I mean, why? We're talking about an almost 35 year old product and WotC isn't going to publish something similar any time soon.

 

[CleverNickName]

I mean, why? We're talking about an almost 35 year old product and WotC isn't going to publish something similar any time soon.

You've answered your own question here. The "why" is so that they don't publish similar products (and run into this issue again) in the future. You know, keep improving their products and growing their fan base. That sort of thing.

 

[Dungeonosophy]

Note it and move on. It already has a dislaimer. In effect it proves the disclaimer.

"We (Wizards) recognize that some of the legacy content available on this website does not reflect the values of the Dungeons & Dragons franchise today. Some older content may reflect ethnic, racial, and gender prejudice that were commonplace in American society at that time. These depictions were wrong then and are wrong today. This content is presented as it was originally created, because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed..."

Some. Yes. This one is definitely one of that some

Yes, GAZ10 is one of those "somes." I've always thought though, that the disclaimer is rather lame corporate-speak. It's only slightly better than nothing. It basically means:

"We're not going to bother looking at the specifics of what's problematic in any of these legacy publications. And we're not going to admit or apologize for any specific thing. It's enough of a symbolic gesture that we put a nicely-worded generic disclaimer on everything pre-5E. We say that's enough. These depictions are wrong, but we're going to continue to rake in $10 for each PDF sale! In the end, it's the bottom line that we care about."

Do I have a specific suggestion for how WotC/Hasbro could make amends?

1) Well, ideally each legacy product which has major "ethnic, racial, or gender prejudice" would be looked at by a team of professional cultural consultants.

2) And their findings would be published in a DRAGON+ article. Where WotC would apologize for specific portrayals.

3) It would be such a healing gesture to bring in the original authors (in this case, Bruce Heard), and editors and artists, and let them apologize on DRAGON+, and say some really beautiful, conciliatory words which are vetted by the cultural amends team. Like R.A. Salvatore's recent words on problematic aspects of the drow, which I think was a beautiful gesture.

4) The DRAGON+ article would then be forever linked to the DriveThruRPG product page. It would be a truly healing gesture.

Like WotC says: "Dungeons & Dragons teaches that diversity is a strength, and we strive to make our D&D products as welcoming and inclusive as possible."

Then teach us WotC! Teach us and explain exactly where you (including TSR) failed to practice the principle that "diversity is strength" in the past. And in the present: because GAZ10 and other problematic products are still "D&D products." How are you going to make GAZ10 "as welcoming and inclusive as possible"? "As possible" is a tall order.

WotC's disclaimer ends with the statement:
"This part of our work will never end."

Okay, get crackin'! You said this part of your work will never end. So put together a standing team of cultural consultants, and start the amends process. This would be an ongoing DRAGON+ feature. It'll take years, and that's okay. Because this work will never end!

5) Besides educating folks through the amendatory DRAGON+ articles, I'd also suggest that a large portion of proceeds of problematic legacy PDFs be perpetually donated to an appropriate charity. In the case of GAZ10, I'd personally suggest the Lakota Waldorf School...they could use the money. Yet I'm sure there are plenty of worthy Indigenous American and East Asian charities which WotC could identify, even in the Renton-Seattle area. However, the more specific the better. For example, GAZ10 contains distasteful content specifically related to the Vodun (Voodoo), Lakota (Teton Sioux), Nakota (Assiniboine/Stoney), Kanienʼkehá꞉ka (Mohawk), Apsáalooke (Crow), Mongolian, Tibetan, Chinese, and Bhutanese cultures, and perhaps others. It would not be hard for WotC's cultural amends team to do some web research and find a charity related to each of those cultures. And sort of divvy up the PDF "amends royalties" based on approximately how many distasteful jabs each culture received. (For example, there are only three sentences which buffoonishly refer to Vodun spirituality, but many paragraphs which refer to "Red Orcs.")

I realize that admitting anything would be a courageous opening of a can of worms. Corporations are not always known for their courage. And I realize that it costs money to have cultural consultants comb through legacy books. But sometimes ya gotta put your money where your mouth is.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yes, GAZ10 is one of those "somes." I've always thought though, that the disclaimer is rather lame corporate-speak. It basically means:

"We're not going to bother looking at the specifics of what's problematic in any of these legacy publications. And we're not going to admit or apologize for any specific thing. It's enough of a symbolic gesture that we put a nicely-worded generic disclaimer on everything pre-5E. We say that's enough. These depictions are wrong, but we're going to continue to rake in $10 for each PDF sale! In the end, it's the bottom line that we care about."

Do I have a specific suggestion for how WotC/Hasbro could make amends?

Well, ideally each legacy product which has major "ethnic, racial, or gender prejudice" would be looked at by a team of professional cultural consultants. And their findings would be published in a DRAGON+ article. And WotC would apologize for specific portrayals.

It would be such a healing gesture to bring in the original authors (in this case, Bruce Heard), and editors and artists, and let them apologize on DRAGON+, and say some really beautiful, conciliatory words which are vetted by the cultural amends team.

The DRAGON+ article would then be forever linked to the DriveThruRPG product page. It would be a truly healing gesture.

Like WotC said: "Dungeons & Dragons teaches that diversity is a strength, and we strive to make our D&D products as welcoming and inclusive as possible.."

Then teach us WotC! Teach us and explain exactly where you (including TSR) failed to practice the principle that "diversity is strength" in the past. And in the present: because GAZ10 and other problematic products are still "D&D products." How are you going to make GAZ10 "as welcoming and inclusive as possible"? "As possible" is a tall order.

WotC's disclaimer ends with the statement:
"This part of our work will never end"

Okay, get crackin'! You said this part of your work will never end. So put together a standing team of cultural consultants, and start the amends process. This would be an ongoing DRAGON+ feature. It'll take years, and that's okay. Because this work will never end!

Besides educating folks through the amendatory DRAGON+ articles, I'd also suggest that a large portion of proceeds of problematic legacy PDFs be perpetually donated to an appropriate charity. In the case of GAZ10, I'd personally suggest the Lakota Waldorf School...they could use the money. Yet I'm sure there are plenty of worthy Indigenous American and East Asian charities which WotC could identify, even in the Renton-Seattle area. However, the more specific the better. For example, GAZ10 contains distasteful content specifically related to the Vodun, Nakota (Assiniboine/Stoney), Kanienʼkehá꞉ka (Mohawk), Mongolian, Tibetan, Chinese, and Bhutanese cultures, and perhaps others. It would not be hard for WotC's cultural amends team to do some web research and find a charity related to each of those cultures.

I realize that admitting anything would be a courageous opening of a can of worms. Corporations are not always known for their courage. And I realize that it costs money to have cultural consultants comb through legacy books. But sometimes ya gotta put your money where your mouth is.

Not gonna happen.
1. Costs to much money vs what they make on Legacy products.
2. Goes against the play any edition you want thing they were pushing not to long ago.

No one really expects legacy products to match modern standards and they're not gonna go back and clean up hundreds of products.

It would be cheaper to not sell those legacy products but they're all available online anyway.

 

[Dungeonosophy]

Not gonna happen.

It's definitely not going to happen if no one voices it. I am voicing it.

 

[Zardnaar]

It's definitely not going to happen if no one voices it. I am voicing it.

Logistics means it won't happen.

At best you might get the product pulled.

Probably not worth the PR nightmare.

 

[Krachek]

If we push too much on Wotc for amends, or on creators to have cultural validation on new product, they will simply stop.
Stop using cultural reference.
So no more setting, no more guide, no more supplement, and no more offense.

 

[Dungeonosophy]

Logistics means it won't happen.

At best you might get the product pulled.

Probably not worth the PR nightmare.

What, are you a prophet? You're speaking pretty authoritatively for someone who's not a representative of Wizards of the Coast.

Or are you really just saying that you personally wish for no amends to be made?

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

You've answered your own question here. The "why" is so that they don't publish similar products.

And to prove to people that deny that D&D had racist roots that it indeed did. I can't even count the amount of times that I've been told "Orcs are not stand-ins for real life BIPOC", when this type of research proves that completely wrong. They were. It sucks, but they were.

 

[BookTenTiger]

Not gonna happen.
1. Costs to much money vs what they make on Legacy products.
2. Goes against the play any edition you want thing they were pushing not to long ago.

No one really expects legacy products to match modern standards and they're not gonna go back and clean up hundreds of products.

It would be cheaper to not sell those legacy products but they're all available online anyway.