D&D General Refresh my memory on the lethality of 3rd ed

[James Gasik]

I view this through a slightly different lens. The biggest thing about lethality in 3.X was resource management.

3.X was very non-lethal compared to earlier editions if you made sure to manage your resources carefully. The two most critical resources being equipment and spell slots. First, your healer (cleric, most likely) could manage spell slots to plan for healing for the whole party. Second, with the advent of easily accessible wands, potions, etc, the player could make sure they had ways to heal themselves. As long as you did that, you were always much safer in 3.X than my experiences in 1e.

OTOH, 3.X viewed through the eyes of 5e is basically an accounting horror story. 5e gives you free healing at night; in 3.X you had to account for almost all of it. 5e gives you free hit dice of healing each day; in 3.X you had to remember to stock up on your own potions (etc.). For all the talk of 3.X being a "magic Walmart", this was huge balancing factor. You couldn't just spend all your money on cool armor and weapons. You had to manage how much you would budget for consumables vs permanent items. And in 5e everyone gets access to the easy healing; in 3.X it was the domain of divine casters (mostly clerics). This means that the healers spell slots aren't just for combat, they need to be managed to keep the party alive and healthy. If players failed to manage any of these things properly, death was waiting nearby.

FWIW, I miss some but not all of the hefty resource management from 3.X. Concepts like being worn down over time or finding amazing wealth in the form of a trove of healing potions are basically gone from 5e. There's a reason people call 5e "easy mode", and lack of need for resource management is a big part of it. But I also don't miss my spreadsheets managing gold, perishable items, and weight. YMMV.

My group is lucky, my roommate has a talent for tracking stuff on a spreadsheet, so he has become the unofficial treasurer. That doesn't prevent people from forgetting the stuff they have, but that's certainly not his fault!

I never had a problem with 3e book keeping, but ironically, Pathfinder 1e was a nightmare for me. So many things in Pathfinder give you niche bonuses like "+4 on saves vs. Necromantic effects" that come up so rarely that you forget you have them, and even if you DO remember, chances are the monster with some crazy ability won't bother to say what kind of effect it is!

I remember fighting a Green Hag and having to save vs. their weaponized ugliness and running down my sheet. "Is it a necromantic fear mind affecting compulsion death or negative energy effect?"

"Uh, it doesn't say so."

"Figures."

 

[James Gasik]

Let's not forget the All-Star cast of Pounce, Rend and Swallow Whole, which are all different ways of saying 'screw this character in particular'.

Or Grab and Trip. Because why have a system for combat maneuvers? Just give the monster the ability to just do the thing and deal damage while it's at it!

...although come to think about it, it's still that way in 5e, innit?

 

[Vaalingrade]

While a "magic shop" doesn't make much sense (I mean, how do you afford to keep anything in stock, let alone security?)

Illusions.

Also all the money you make from selling magic items.

Magic Shops 4 Life.

 

[DarkCrisis]

I'd say it's a calculus version

Illusions.

Also all the money you make from selling magic items.

Magic Shops 4 Life.

i'm okay with magic shops in the sense of they are found only in major cities and the stock is limited. Mostly +1 items, potions, Scrolls level 1-3 etc You want anything better you better find a Wizard or Nobel etc and hope they are willing to sale it.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Or Grab and Trip. Because why have a system for combat maneuvers? Just give the monster the ability to just do the thing and deal damage while it's at it!

...although come to think about it, it's still that way in 5e, innit?

I just gave the PCs that same powers.

 

[Vaalingrade]

i'm okay with magic shops in the sense of they are found only in major cities and the stock is limited. Mostly +1 items, potions, Scrolls level 1-3 etc You want anything better you better find a Wizard or Nobel etc and hope they are willing to sale it.

I'm not okay with +X items at all. Let them cease to be in favor of items that are actually magic.

 

[Voadam]

Let's not forget the All-Star cast of Pounce, Rend and Swallow Whole, which are all different ways of saying 'screw this character in particular'.

Pounce and Rend I did not consider particularly PC negating powers.

Pounce was just full attack after moving, sometimes in limited circumstances (first ambush of the combat, only after charging). Rend was just extra damage if both claws hit. Mostly just potential damage that can be concentrated on a single character.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Pounce and Rend I did not consider particularly PC negating powers.

Pounce was just full attack after moving, sometimes in limited circumstances (first ambush of the combat, only after charging). Rend was just extra damage if both claws hit. Mostly just potential damage that can be concentrated on a single character.

Most creatures with them had extra attacks that procced when it went off.

 

[CleverNickName]

If AD&D is hard mode and 5E is easy mode, how does 3E fit into it?

Those are a couple of big IFs. D&D has always been just as "hard" or as "lethal" as the DM wanted it to be.

Sure, the rules were different in each edition and had different odds and consequences for success and failure...and if they are interpreted literally without any DM at the table to adjudicate, the older editions are going to read as more "lethal" than the newer ones. If that's the question you are trying to answer, I'd say that 3E is more lethal than 5E but not as lethal as AD&D 2E.

BUT that ignores the first rule of every edition: the rule that states the DM can, and should, and sometimes must, make adjustments to the rules as needed to ensure everyone is having fun. Some of the older editions even encourage the DM to fudge the dice to build tension or keep the story moving. Even outside of the rules, the DM decides which monsters are placed and how many, which has more impact on the lethality of combat than the dice ever will. The DM decides which items and treasure you find, how much gold you have to spend, how much rest/recovery you get, etc.

TL;DR: The DM is not a computer or an automaton, the DM is a human being with varied human feelings, biases, ideas, goals, judgments, and definitions of the words "fun" and "lethal"...and you really can't ignore that. But if you somehow could, 3E would probably be less lethal than 2E, but more lethal than 5E.

 

[Voadam]

I never had a problem with 3e book keeping, but ironically, Pathfinder 1e was a nightmare for me. So many things in Pathfinder give you niche bonuses like "+4 on saves vs. Necromantic effects" that come up so rarely that you forget you have them, and even if you DO remember, chances are the monster with some crazy ability won't bother to say what kind of effect it is!

I remember fighting a Green Hag and having to save vs. their weaponized ugliness and running down my sheet. "Is it a necromantic fear mind affecting compulsion death or negative energy effect?"

"Uh, it doesn't say so."

"Figures."

I was annoyed at the roper's untyped ability damage tentacles in 3.0, 3.5, and Pathfinder 1e.

"Strands (Ex) A roper can extend up to six thin, sticky strands from its body at a time, launching them to a maximum range of 50 feet. A roper's attacks with its strands resolve as ranged touch attacks. These strands are quite strong, but can be severed by any amount of slashing damage (a strand is AC 20). A creature struck by a strand is numbed and weakened by the strange material, and must make a DC 25 Fortitude save or take 1d6 points of Strength damage. The save DC is Constitution-based."

Not poison. Not negative energy. Not magic.